From phma@webjockey.net Fri Aug 16 04:17:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: phma@ixazon.dynip.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 16 Aug 2002 11:17:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 93783 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2002 11:17:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Aug 2002 11:17:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO neofelis.ixazon.lan) (208.150.110.21) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Aug 2002 11:17:43 -0000 Received: by neofelis.ixazon.lan (Postfix, from userid 500) id 125693C479; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: "Newton, Philip" , "'lojban@yahoogroups.com'" Subject: Re: [lojban] Phrases for language learners Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:17:35 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: X-Spamtrap: fesmri@ixazon.dynip.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0208160717350B.03066@neofelis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: phma@ixazon.dynip.com From: Pierre Abbat X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92712300 On Friday 16 August 2002 05:54, Newton, Philip wrote: > While I was learning my most recent natlang, I frequently employed some > phrases to help me understand other people or how to express myself. Here > are the phrases as well as my attempts at translating them into Lojban; > comments and corrections are extremely welcome. > > I'm especially unsure about whether text can simply be quoted, or has to be > abstracted or de-abstracted somehow, before it can be used as the argument > of such questions. > > Also, how would one answer such questions? Simply with the information > queried? (Example: "ma valsi zo dog la lojban" - "gerku") > > * "What does ___ mean?" > > This refers to a word, a phrase, or a sentence -- it is open whether the > answer is to be a translation into English or an explanation in the > language itself. So a German asking "What does 'dog' mean?" might get the > answer "It means 'Hund'" or "It's an animal which is often kept as a pet; > it barks". > > My attempt: ___ se smuni ma or {ma smuni ___} > Commment: I'm not sure how to quote the "___", though -- should it be "zo" > for single words and "zoi ly. ___ .ly." for multiple words? Or always "lo'u > ___ le'u"? For example, which of the following would be correct? > > (One word) > zo gerku se smuni ma > zoi ly. gerku .ly. se smuni ma This sounds to me like a word "gerku" in some other language. Normally I'd quote Lojban in "zoi" only if it's impossible to use "lo'u" or "lu", for example {zoi ly. fa'o smuci lo le'u .ly}. > lo'u gerku le'u se smuni ma > > (A phrase, not grammatical on its own) > zoi ly. bau la lojban .ly. se smuni ma > lo'u bau la lojban le'u se smuni ma > > (Multiple words, together grammatical on their own, but not > a complete sentence) > zoi ly. blanu zdani .ly. se smuni ma > lo'u blanu zdani le'u se smuni ma {blanu zdani} is a complete sentence. > (A complete sentence) > zoi ly. mi prami do .ly. se smuni ma > lo'u mi prami do le'u se smuni ma > > * "How do you say ___ in ?" > * "What's the word for ___ in ?" > > This requests a translation of a word, phrase, or sentence into the target > language. > > My attempt: cusku zoi gy. ___ .gy. fo la lojban fi'o jalge ma I'd use {fanva}. > Comment: This one was hard, and it's probably the wrong way to express > this. My grammar isn't enough to produce a good version. I'm pretty sure > that "zoi" is the right cmavo here, though, since the "___" will be > non-Lojban text. > > Other attempt: ma valsi zoi gy. ___ .gy. la lojban > > Comment: Only useful for individual words (or where you think the Lojban > translation will be one word) -- but still. > > * What's the difference between [the words/phrases] ___ and ___?" > > Useful when two words, phrases, or constructions have similar meanings to > the learner, and he wished to understand which one is used when, or how > they differ in meaning. > > My attempt: zo ___ zo ___ frica ma (or lo'u ___ le'u lo'u ___ le'u frica > ma) > > Comment: This seemed straightforward... there's probably a catch explaining > why this is not a good way of expressing what I want. > > mu'omi'e filip. > [email copies appreciated, since I read the digest] > {ko fukpi mrilu .i'o fi mi ki'u le du'u mi te mrilu loi notseljmaji}