Subject: Re: [lojban] Phrases for language learners

From: Adam Raizen <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:26:48 +0200

la filip. niutyn. cusku di'e

> Also, how would one answer such questions? Simply with the
information
> queried? (Example: "ma valsi zo dog la lojban" - "gerku")

I would interpret that as follows: "What's a word for 'dog' in
lojban? -- It [probably the word itself] is a dog." In general, a
question asked with 'ma' requires a sumti for an answer, i.e.
something like 'zo gerku'. Also, since 'dog' is an English word it
should probably be in a zoi quote, or otherwise marked as being
English (e.g. 'zo dog poi glico ku'o'), otherwise someone might think
you're talking about the non-existant rafsi 'dog' or someone/something
whose lojban name is 'dog'.

> * "What does ___ mean?"
>
> This refers to a word, a phrase, or a sentence -- it is open whether
the
> answer is to be a translation into English or an explanation in the
language
> itself. So a German asking "What does 'dog' mean?" might get the
answer "It
> means 'Hund'" or "It's an animal which is often kept as a pet; it
barks".
>
> My attempt: ___ se smuni ma

That looks good to me. For a response to a 'ma' put in the second
place of 'valsi', 'smuni', etc., I would use a property with 'ka' (or
'si'o' in some interpretations of that word). For example: 'zo gerku
se smuni ma' -- 'le ka gerku' ['What does 'dog' mean? dogness'] or not
so trivially 'le ka ce'u remselpli recycti mabru gi'e ckini lo'e lorxu
.e lo'e labno' (the American Heritage Dictionary's definition of
'dog'.) For an English translation, I would say 'la'e zoi zoi. dog
.zoi.'

> Commment: I'm not sure how to quote the "___", though -- should it
be "zo"
> for single words and "zoi ly. ___ .ly." for multiple words? Or
always "lo'u
> ___ le'u"? For example, which of the following would be correct?

If the text is lojban, you should use lojban quotes. First use
'lu-li'u' if the text is grammatical, and use 'zo' if the text is only
one word morphologically (since that is significantly easier). Most of
the things you probably want to say in this spot should be grammatical
lojban, so you probably won't need 'lo'u-le'u'. (For example, a single
sumti or selbri is grammatical).

> (One word)
> zo gerku se smuni ma
> zoi ly. gerku .ly. se smuni ma
> lo'u gerku le'u se smuni ma

For a single lojban word, always use 'zo', which works even if the
word is not a grammatical utterance by itself.

> (A phrase, not grammatical on its own)
> zoi ly. bau la lojban .ly. se smuni ma
> lo'u bau la lojban le'u se smuni ma

'bau la lojban' is in fact grammatical on its own, so it's best to use
'lu-li'u' here.

> (Multiple words, together grammatical on their own, but not
> a complete sentence)
> zoi ly. blanu zdani .ly. se smuni ma
> lo'u blanu zdani le'u se smuni ma

In lojban, there is really nothing incomplete about 'blanu zdani',
it's a well-formed sentence by itself; so use 'lu-li'u'.

> (A complete sentence)
> zoi ly. mi prami do .ly. se smuni ma
> lo'u mi prami do le'u se smuni ma

Once again, 'lu-li'u' is recommended.

> * "How do you say ___ in <target language>?"
> * "What's the word for ___ in <target language>?"
>
> This requests a translation of a word, phrase, or sentence into the
target
> language.
>
> My attempt: cusku zoi gy. ___ .gy. fo la lojban fi'o jalge ma
>
> Comment: This one was hard, and it's probably the wrong way to
express this.
> My grammar isn't enough to produce a good version. I'm pretty sure
that
> "zoi" is the right cmavo here, though, since the "___" will be
non-Lojban
> text.

There is a BAI shortcut for 'fi'o jalge': 'ja'e'. I would interpret
that sentence as "What's the result of someone saying X in lojban?" If
you want to use that basic sentence, maybe 'sepi'o' would be better
than 'ja'e'.

> Other attempt: ma valsi zoi gy. ___ .gy. la lojban
>
> Comment: Only useful for individual words (or where you think the
Lojban
> translation will be one word) -- but still.

This one is pretty good; I only have one minor gripe. I would say that
the x2 of 'valsi' is a "meaning" or a property, and not a quoted word,
so I would say 'la'e zoi gy. ... .gy." instead.

There was once some discussion as to whether a phrase or string of
words could be considered 'valsi', but I think that that was rejected.
To get an arbitrary phrase translated, I would say 'ma lojbo sinxa
...'. or 'ma pe bau la lojban. sinxa ...'. You could also use 'fanva'
in the obvious way.

> * What's the difference between [the words/phrases] ___ and ___?"
>
> Useful when two words, phrases, or constructions have similar
meanings to
> the learner, and he wished to understand which one is used when, or
how they
> differ in meaning.
>
> My attempt: zo ___ zo ___ frica ma (or lo'u ___ le'u lo'u ___ le'u
frica ma)
>
> Comment: This seemed straightforward... there's probably a catch
explaining
> why this is not a good way of expressing what I want.

It looks good to me.

mu'o mi'e .adam.