From araizen@newmail.net Fri Aug 16 04:22:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: araizen@newmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 16 Aug 2002 11:22:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 35072 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2002 11:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Aug 2002 11:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout1.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Aug 2002 11:22:55 -0000 Received: from default ([62.0.181.233]) by mxout1.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H0X0067ZOY3ZX@mxout1.netvision.net.il> for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:22:54 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:26:48 +0200 Subject: Re: [lojban] Phrases for language learners To: Lojban List Message-id: <001201c24520$7a9bdc20$e9b5003e@default> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: From: Adam Raizen X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=3063669 X-Yahoo-Profile: araizen la filip. niutyn. cusku di'e > Also, how would one answer such questions? Simply with the information > queried? (Example: "ma valsi zo dog la lojban" - "gerku") I would interpret that as follows: "What's a word for 'dog' in lojban? -- It [probably the word itself] is a dog." In general, a question asked with 'ma' requires a sumti for an answer, i.e. something like 'zo gerku'. Also, since 'dog' is an English word it should probably be in a zoi quote, or otherwise marked as being English (e.g. 'zo dog poi glico ku'o'), otherwise someone might think you're talking about the non-existant rafsi 'dog' or someone/something whose lojban name is 'dog'. > * "What does ___ mean?" > > This refers to a word, a phrase, or a sentence -- it is open whether the > answer is to be a translation into English or an explanation in the language > itself. So a German asking "What does 'dog' mean?" might get the answer "It > means 'Hund'" or "It's an animal which is often kept as a pet; it barks". > > My attempt: ___ se smuni ma That looks good to me. For a response to a 'ma' put in the second place of 'valsi', 'smuni', etc., I would use a property with 'ka' (or 'si'o' in some interpretations of that word). For example: 'zo gerku se smuni ma' -- 'le ka gerku' ['What does 'dog' mean? dogness'] or not so trivially 'le ka ce'u remselpli recycti mabru gi'e ckini lo'e lorxu .e lo'e labno' (the American Heritage Dictionary's definition of 'dog'.) For an English translation, I would say 'la'e zoi zoi. dog .zoi.' > Commment: I'm not sure how to quote the "___", though -- should it be "zo" > for single words and "zoi ly. ___ .ly." for multiple words? Or always "lo'u > ___ le'u"? For example, which of the following would be correct? If the text is lojban, you should use lojban quotes. First use 'lu-li'u' if the text is grammatical, and use 'zo' if the text is only one word morphologically (since that is significantly easier). Most of the things you probably want to say in this spot should be grammatical lojban, so you probably won't need 'lo'u-le'u'. (For example, a single sumti or selbri is grammatical). > (One word) > zo gerku se smuni ma > zoi ly. gerku .ly. se smuni ma > lo'u gerku le'u se smuni ma For a single lojban word, always use 'zo', which works even if the word is not a grammatical utterance by itself. > (A phrase, not grammatical on its own) > zoi ly. bau la lojban .ly. se smuni ma > lo'u bau la lojban le'u se smuni ma 'bau la lojban' is in fact grammatical on its own, so it's best to use 'lu-li'u' here. > (Multiple words, together grammatical on their own, but not > a complete sentence) > zoi ly. blanu zdani .ly. se smuni ma > lo'u blanu zdani le'u se smuni ma In lojban, there is really nothing incomplete about 'blanu zdani', it's a well-formed sentence by itself; so use 'lu-li'u'. > (A complete sentence) > zoi ly. mi prami do .ly. se smuni ma > lo'u mi prami do le'u se smuni ma Once again, 'lu-li'u' is recommended. > * "How do you say ___ in ?" > * "What's the word for ___ in ?" > > This requests a translation of a word, phrase, or sentence into the target > language. > > My attempt: cusku zoi gy. ___ .gy. fo la lojban fi'o jalge ma > > Comment: This one was hard, and it's probably the wrong way to express this. > My grammar isn't enough to produce a good version. I'm pretty sure that > "zoi" is the right cmavo here, though, since the "___" will be non-Lojban > text. There is a BAI shortcut for 'fi'o jalge': 'ja'e'. I would interpret that sentence as "What's the result of someone saying X in lojban?" If you want to use that basic sentence, maybe 'sepi'o' would be better than 'ja'e'. > Other attempt: ma valsi zoi gy. ___ .gy. la lojban > > Comment: Only useful for individual words (or where you think the Lojban > translation will be one word) -- but still. This one is pretty good; I only have one minor gripe. I would say that the x2 of 'valsi' is a "meaning" or a property, and not a quoted word, so I would say 'la'e zoi gy. ... .gy." instead. There was once some discussion as to whether a phrase or string of words could be considered 'valsi', but I think that that was rejected. To get an arbitrary phrase translated, I would say 'ma lojbo sinxa ...'. or 'ma pe bau la lojban. sinxa ...'. You could also use 'fanva' in the obvious way. > * What's the difference between [the words/phrases] ___ and ___?" > > Useful when two words, phrases, or constructions have similar meanings to > the learner, and he wished to understand which one is used when, or how they > differ in meaning. > > My attempt: zo ___ zo ___ frica ma (or lo'u ___ le'u lo'u ___ le'u frica ma) > > Comment: This seemed straightforward... there's probably a catch explaining > why this is not a good way of expressing what I want. It looks good to me. mu'o mi'e .adam.