From araizen@newmail.net Sat Aug 17 16:16:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: araizen@newmail.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 17 Aug 2002 23:16:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 22100 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2002 23:16:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 Aug 2002 23:16:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout1.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Aug 2002 23:16:43 -0000 Received: from default ([62.0.180.97]) by mxout1.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H1000BU5GNSKH@mxout1.netvision.net.il> for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:16:42 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:22:38 +0200 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: zo xruti xruti To: lojban list Message-id: <005f01c2464d$5efc14c0$61b4003e@default> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810111025.032cb880@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811195117.031545b0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816114920.0304dc00@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020817150724.00ac4730@pop.east.cox.net> From: Adam Raizen X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=3063669 X-Yahoo-Profile: araizen la lojbab. cusku di'e > At 10:01 PM 8/17/02 +0200, Adam Raizen wrote: > >'sezyxru' (and 'vo'a zei xruti' and any other lujvo I can think of > >other than 'zilpavyxru') often do not have the necessary meaning. One > >often wants to say that something reverted to a former state, > > fatne binxo? (fatybi'o) > > Originally binxo/galfi cenba/stika > were intended to be the generic words for change, both agentive and > non-agentive. Regularization of place structures and sumti-raising made > the x1 of galfi and stika an event, allowing the use of gansu or zukte > for agentive and purposeful agentive action to modify those. fatne then > was to be used to indicate the reverse of any of these changes (or any > other reversal of process not easily indicated by na'e/to'e). xruti was an > overlapping word for what now is fatne ke galfi (gasnu) or fatne ke stika > (gasnu) because the latter were too long for their frequency per Zipf. I understand the historical development, but the current definition of fatne is "x1 [sequence] is in reverse order from x2 [sequence]; x1 (object) is inverted from x2 (object)", and I don't see how that can include reverting or returning. For one thing, it doesn't contain a place for the state/property that is returned to. If someone says 'mi fatne', does that mean that they're standing on their head, or that they've returned? > Thus I can see it as being a dispreferred choice to go away from dikyjvo, > but it is hard to call the language "broken" when this isn't easy or > requires a longer word form than we would prefer/Zipf would suggest. The problem in this case isn't that it's difficult or long, it's that there is no solution (which doesn't use 'zi'o'). While I realize that some people don't care so much about seljvajvo/dikyjvo, I think that I can complain that the language is broken if there is *no* seljvajvo option. > > (I concede that 'zilpavyxru' would have the necessary > >meaning, but it is unnecessarily long and complicated.) > > Why not just zilxru? The pa seems to be the logical default for a deleted > place, since you can get the others with SE rather than numbering. I would think that 'zil' by itself would work like 'don' and other KOhA cmavo with rafsi, in that it would fill up one of the places greater than x1 with the sumti in question. It would be strange to interpret 'donta'a' as 'You talk to x1 about x2', rather than 'x1 talks to you about x2'. But in general I would like to avoid using 'zi'o' at all for anything; it is too clumsy. > Adding new gismu is an even bigger change to the baseline. Well, I'm not sure that it's bigger; at least it doesn't invalidate anyone's usage or require that anyone relearn anything, which seems to be historically the reason for the baseline in the first place. At any rate, this doesn't have to be a baseline change. A new gismu could easily come into use without being on the official lists, and it should be much easier to get people to use it, since it doesn't contradict anything official. mu'o mi'e .adam.