From phma@webjockey.net Mon Aug 19 19:03:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: phma@ixazon.dynip.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 20 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 99560 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO neofelis.ixazon.lan) (208.150.110.21) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0000 Received: by neofelis.ixazon.lan (Postfix, from userid 500) id 98F793C477; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] memories Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:03:40 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: X-Spamtrap: fesmri@ixazon.dynip.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0208192203400D.01574@neofelis> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: phma@ixazon.dynip.com From: Pierre Abbat X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92712300 On Monday 19 August 2002 10:26, Jorge Llambias wrote: > Let's consider these three English sentences: > > E1) John remembered that he had watered the plants. > E2) John remembered watering the plants. > E3) John remembered to water the plants. > > The first one goes into Lojban most directly: > > L1) la djan pu morji le du'u dy pu jaursabji lei spati > > {morji} means "x1 remembers fact x2 about x3" so it cannot > be used to translate E2 or E3 directly, we need to paraphrase. > (For some reason, Lojban tends to go for the least basic > meaning in these cases, this reminds me of {facki}. You can't > translate "I remember you" as {mi do morji}.) > > We can only morji fe facts, we can't morji fe events, but > we can morji fi events, so we could translate E2 as: > > L2) la djan pu morji fi le nu dy pu jaursabji lei spati > John remembered (something) about his watering of the plants. > > Now what about "remember to"? It seems to me that to remember > to do something is to remember that one has to do it and also to > do it. I could say "I remembered I had to water the plants, but > there was no water, so I couldn't do it", but this one sounds > at least to me a bit strained: "I remembered to water the plants, > but there was no water so I couldn't do it". Perhaps "had to" > is a bit strong also, it could just be "was going to": "I > remembered to" = "I remembered that I was going to and I did". > > If we forget about the fullfillment, we can use {pu'o} to > translate E3: > > L3) la djan pu morji le du'u dy pupu'o jaursabji lei spati > John remembered that he had been going to water the plants. > > But in that case, did he water them? Not necessarily for L3, > but almost certainly for E3, so not a good tranlation. > > It seems that "remember to" is not only about memory but > also about fullfillment of an obligation or an intention. > Or can we take the fullfillment part as a Gricean implication, > if he remembered he was going to do it, then he must have > done it? I see no reason why one can't morji le nu co'e. i mi morji lenu jaursabji le spatrbasiliko kei le purlamjeftu, .iku'i ca carvi. As to "remember to water", that should be a different word: mi zukmo'i lenu jaursabji lei spati. mu'omi'e pier.