From jjllambias@hotmail.com Wed Sep 11 16:42:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 11 Sep 2002 23:42:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 24258 invoked from network); 11 Sep 2002 23:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Sep 2002 23:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Sep 2002 23:42:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:42:11 -0700 Received: from 200.69.6.43 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:42:10 GMT To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I like chocolate Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:42:10 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Sep 2002 23:42:11.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9315CC0:01C259EC] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.69.6.43] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=6071566 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 la pycyn cusku di'e >You mean in Xorban, of course, not Lojban (I have to throw that in from >time >to time to keep others from developing your bad habits). Very considerate of you, but {xorban} means "Croatian language" in..., well in what you call Xorban. >What does "use an intension" mean? What can you do with them? I say things like: {mi nelci lo'e cakla}, {ta simsa lo'e sfofa}, {ta pixra lo'e sincrboa}. >{le du'u ce'u >broda} refers to a property (or some properties, of course), using the >expression is a way of talking about that property. Right. But in those cases I am not talking about properties. I'm not saying that I like some property, that that is like some property or a picture of some property. >(but I can't figure out how to say, fairly literally "it has the >property of being broda" in Lojban -- nor Xorban, for that matter). What's wrong with: {ta ckaci le ka ce'u broda}? >{lo ...} always refers to things in the reference class of {...}, the >extension of {...}. Whether lo ... (the thing(s), not the expression) is >extensional or not depends upon what sort of things are referred to by >{...}. I think we're blocked here. For me every set {lo'i broda} has an extension, and {lo broda} always picks from that extension. >(I do wish you'd use {du'u} >after all the work we went through to get it straightened out) Only you seem to think that the outcome of that discussion was that {ka} should not be used. The way I understood it is that {ka ce'u broda} is equivalent to {du'u ce'u broda}, but {ka} and {du'u} differ in their defaults: {ka broda} necessarily has at least one implicit {ce'u} and {du'u broda} necessarily has no implicit {ce'u}. >A place that requires ... tokens is presumably filled by using {lo ...} -- >isn't that what you just said? Is there a place -- in Lojban -- that >requires being filled by ... types? I couldn't find any. I can't think of any place that requires types. I can think of plenty that accept types. << > ta simlu le ka ce'u sfofa > That appears to have the property of being a sofa. > > ta simsa lo'e sfofa > That is like a sofa. > > >> > >For the same reason, {ta simsa lo'e sfofa} is false (in your >usage, where {lo'e sfofa} refers to the proximate type of sofas -- No, that's not my usage. I would have thought the English gloss might have shown that. {lo'e sfofa} does not refer to a type in my usage, that would be taking the type as a token of types, and I don't do that. I use the type as a type, not to talk about types. >have I got >that right, at least?) You knew I couldn't possibly mean that. >if {ta} refers to a piece of furniture, but could be >true if {ta} referred to another type or maybe even a property. But all of >this is still talking about the type. What is an example (by you) of using >it? That was meant as an example of using it, not talking about it. > My best guess is that, so far as >language is concerned, there are no uses of types, etc., only mentions. Ok. We can agree to disagree about that then. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com