From lojbab@lojban.org Sat Sep 14 10:57:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 14 Sep 2002 17:57:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 70679 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2002 17:57:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Sep 2002 17:57:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao02.cox.net) (68.1.17.243) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2002 17:57:00 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020914175657.UREX12192.lakemtao02.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:56:57 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020914133527.03138630@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:52:24 -0400 To: "Lojban List" Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: word for "www" (was: Archive location.) In-Reply-To: References: <00a601c25ab8$918fd500$42b6003e@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 01:13 PM 9/13/02 +0100, And Rosta wrote: > > > But things like selbroda = se broda are an > > > abomination. If I see "se broda" if have to consult the lexical > > > entry for "broda" to see what the phrase means, but if I see > > > "selbroda" I have to consult the lexical entry for "selbroda" > > > -- the very fact of using the lujvo implies that the meaning > > > is NOT "se broda". > > > > Since there is only one possible interpretation for 'se broda', I > > think that it's clear that 'selbroda' has the same meaning. > >Certainly not. It's reasonable to suppose that if x is selbroda >then x is se broda (though the grammar of Lojban does not >guarantee that), but it is certainly not reasonable to suppose that >if x is se broda then x is selbroda. In the case of the simple conversions, I think that will be true. However, such lujvo will tend to be used only when a) broda has a short rafsi in final position, b) selbroda (or se broda) itself is used a lot in tanru with the order important to making the place structure properly accessible (i.e. brode co selbroda vs brode co se broda, or selbroda be ko'a brode vs se broda be ko'a brode where the extra cmavo adds to the parsing processing needed to figure out what is going on) and c) where the concept is one that in the person's native language is a unitary and common word, and therefore the speaker expects to use a unitary word in Lojban. >The job of lujvo is to >express meanings that are not adequately expressible by the other >words in the lexicon. I don't think that is true. Most lujvo could be expressed by a suitably elaborated non-tanru with all the places filled in meticulously. That is presumably how we will eventually define Lojban words in Lojban. But it would be long-winded. I think that your statement may be valid for most fu'ivla, however. >If you can express a given meaning without a lujvo, then don't use a lujvo. Whereas I prefer lujvo. The text is often shorter, always less grammatically complex. Us English speakers seem to have a historical tendency for laziness, shortening expressions at the expense of complexifying the semantics of the words. I think English speakers speaking Lojban will tend to the same thing. > For example, if you want to >talk about things with one horn, then don't use {pavyseljirna}, >because that doesn't mean "thing with one horn"; it means >"unicorn". But we don't really know that, first of all because we don't have a dictionary. Descriptively, we can say that pavyseljirna has only been *used* for a particular concept that in English is labeled "unicorn", but we would be unwise to presume one-to-one correspondence between Lojban and English words. We don't know if at some point, someone will use pavyseljirna for something one-horned that does not resemble the referent of "unicorn". lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org