From a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Wed Sep 18 16:31:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 18 Sep 2002 23:31:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 27926 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2002 23:31:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 Sep 2002 23:31:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Sep 2002 23:31:12 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17roJS-0007Us-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:32:54 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17roIo-0007UB-00; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:32:14 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox-8.st1.spray.net ([212.78.202.108]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17roIl-0007Tt-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:32:11 -0700 Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-69-251.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.69.251]) by mailbox-8.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B1B2125741 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:29:55 +0200 (DST) To: Subject: RE: [lojban] I like Unicorns (was: Re: I like chocolate) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:31:35 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20020918154024.N11832-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-archive-position: 1325 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: "And Rosta" Reply-To: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122260811 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin xod: > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 08:32:42PM +0100, And Rosta wrote: > > > {lo ka'e pavyseljirna cu blabi} or else {lo su'o mu'ei pavyseljirna > > > cu blabi} is true (according to my beliefs). {lo ca'a pavysljirna > > > cu blabi} is false. > > Translating from Andban to Lojban, I think he meant lo da'i pavyseljirna > is true, and lo da'inai pavyseljirna is false. Yes, {su'o mu'ei} -- and, by some accounts, {ka'e} -- means what you mean by {da'i} and likewise for {ca'a}/{da'i nai}. But you are not translating from Andban to Lojban. You are translating from saske jbobau to pilno jbobau. That is, in the usage of me, many years ago, and of current wiki-ites, {da'i} means "in some world other than This World", and {da'i nai} means "in This World}. However, this usage is incorrect. {da'i} means something like "let's suppose", "for argument's sake", or suchlike. {da'i mi klama} means "That I were to go." (hard to capture it in colloquial English). Hence {mi viska lo da'i pavyseljirna} means something like "There is something that (I assert) I saw and that, let's suppose, is a unicorn". {mi viska lo da'i nai pavyseljirna} means "There is something that (I assert) I saw and that, (I assert) -- I am not merely entertaining the idea -- is a unicorn". Given that {ka'e} is contaminated by the notion of capability and {da'i} is incorrect for the purpose, how do we capture the desired notions? {su'o mu'ei} means "in some possible world", but it doesn't entail "not in This World", and there isn't a way of saying "in This World". Accordingly, I will add the following alternative proposals to the experimental cmavo list: A. nau'u CAhE "in This World is" B. ca'ai CAhA "in This World is" ka'ei CAhA "in some world is" [= su'o mu'ei] nu'oi CAhA "in some world but not This World is" [= na'e nau'u ~ nau'u nai] --And.