Subject: RE: [lojban] I like Unicorns (was: Re: I like chocolate)

From: "And Rosta" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:31:35 +0100

xod:
> > On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 08:32:42PM +0100, And Rosta wrote:
> > > {lo ka'e pavyseljirna cu blabi} or else {lo su'o mu'ei pavyseljirna
> > > cu blabi} is true (according to my beliefs). {lo ca'a pavysljirna
> > > cu blabi} is false.
> 
> Translating from Andban to Lojban, I think he meant lo da'i pavyseljirna
> is true, and lo da'inai pavyseljirna is false.

Yes, {su'o mu'ei} -- and, by some accounts, {ka'e} -- means what you mean 
by {da'i} and likewise for {ca'a}/{da'i nai}.

But you are not translating from Andban to Lojban. You are translating
from saske jbobau to pilno jbobau. That is, in the usage of me, many
years ago, and of current wiki-ites, {da'i} means "in some world 
other than This World", and {da'i nai} means "in This World}. However,
this usage is incorrect. {da'i} means something like "let's suppose",
"for argument's sake", or suchlike. {da'i mi klama} means "That I
were to go." (hard to capture it in colloquial English).

Hence {mi viska lo da'i pavyseljirna} means something like 
"There is something that (I assert) I saw and that, let's
suppose, is a unicorn". {mi viska lo da'i nai pavyseljirna} 
means "There is something that (I assert) I saw and
that, (I assert) -- I am not merely entertaining the idea --
is a unicorn".

Given that {ka'e} is contaminated by the notion of capability and
{da'i} is incorrect for the purpose, how do we capture the desired
notions? {su'o mu'ei} means "in some possible world", but it doesn't
entail "not in This World", and there isn't a way of saying "in
This World". Accordingly, I will add the following alternative
proposals to the experimental cmavo list:

A.
nau'u CAhE "in This World is"

B.
ca'ai	CAhA	"in This World is"
ka'ei	CAhA	"in some world is" [= su'o mu'ei]
nu'oi	CAhA	"in some world but not This World is" [= na'e nau'u ~ nau'u nai]

--And.