From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Sep 21 19:56:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 22 Sep 2002 02:56:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 6670 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2002 02:56:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Sep 2002 02:56:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2002 02:56:27 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17swx3-0008MU-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:58:29 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17swwP-0008MB-00; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:57:49 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17swwM-0008M2-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:57:46 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g8M324GZ069710 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:02:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g8M324IT069709 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:02:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:02:04 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Sets and classes Message-ID: <20020922030204.GA69543@allusion.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 1457 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 22, 2002 at 02:40:24AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote: > la djorden cusku di'e >=20 > >The selcmi noda =3D na selcmi is done by exploiting something in > >chapter 16 (search for ``External Bridi Negation'') and then ignoring > >the fact that "na selcmi" implies something different: > > > > selcmi noda =3D=3D > > selcmi naku da =3D=3D > > naku zo'u selcmi da =3D=3D > > na selcmi da > > > >this is all find and good. But for some reason people decide to > >drop the da after the point, claiming it's the same as na selcmi. > >Though perhaps the zo'e could be "da", it is at the least misleading, > >and at the most plain wrong. >=20 > Certainly {na selcmi} does not entail {na selcmi da}, because > {zo'e} could be a particular value from context such that its > relationship is being denied, so they are clearly not equivalent. >=20 > But does not {na selcmi da} entail {na selcmi}? How could the > second one be false if the first one is true? The first: "x1 is not a set with a member". (kinda clunky; easier to translate the equivalent naku da zo'u selcmi da: "It is not true that there is an X, such that x1 is a set with member X". The second: "x1 is not a set." Very very different, pe'i. > One could ask, does {lo selcmi be no da} belong to {lo'i selcmi}? > I don't see how it could. I don't see how it couldn't. > {zilselcmi} should cover all sets though, including the empty one. I think selcmi should also. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9jTKrDrrilS51AZ8RAup2AJwLkYnpWGVz9qOG60jn2P9miekffgCgxFYN U/3DHPl58mV+MzakH7Oh8BM= =OSnT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C--