From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sat Sep 21 20:07:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 22 Sep 2002 03:07:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 70138 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2002 03:07:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Sep 2002 03:07:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.197) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2002 03:07:31 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:07:31 -0700 Received: from 200.69.6.18 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 03:07:30 GMT To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Sets and classes Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 03:07:30 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Sep 2002 03:07:31.0186 (UTC) FILETIME=[30AD3D20:01C261E5] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.69.6.18] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=6071566 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 la djorden cusku di'e > > But does not {na selcmi da} entail {na selcmi}? How could the > > second one be false if the first one is true? > >The first: "x1 is not a set with a member". (kinda clunky; easier >to translate the equivalent naku da zo'u selcmi da: "It is not >true that there is an X, such that x1 is a set with member X". > >The second: "x1 is not a set." > >Very very different, pe'i. In English yes. But English "set" is not a relationship between things, it is a simple description. > > One could ask, does {lo selcmi be no da} belong to {lo'i selcmi}? > > I don't see how it could. > >I don't see how it couldn't. Then a bicycle, which is {lo selcmi be noda}, is a member of {lo'i selcmi} too? Is there anything that is not a member? > > {zilselcmi} should cover all sets though, including the empty one. > >I think selcmi should also. Only if it can be interpreted as {selcmi be zi'o}, which may very well end up being what happens. Perhaps the rule should be changed so that unfilled sumti places should by default be filled with {zi'o} rather than {zo'e}? It would certainly make some things more intuitive. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com