Subject: [lojban] Re: Translation request

From: Jordan DeLong <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:27:36 -0500

On Sun, Sep 22, 2002 at 02:59:50AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote:
> la djorden cusku di'e
> >Though I think if someone wanted the meaning you're suggesting it'd
> >still be better to use a nonlogical connective like jo'u (or maybe
> >joi?).
> 
> I don't really know what {jo'u} means, though I thought of
> something the other day that might be it:
> 
> {ko'a e ko'e klama le zarci} means that ko'a goes to the market
> and ko'e goes to the market, but the two actions need not be
> related. {ko'a joi ko'e klama le zarci} means that as a team they
> go, but it does not entail that {ko'a klama} or {ko'e klama}, in
> some cases it might be enough that only one of them does the actual
> moving. So I suggest that {ko'a jo'u ko'e klama le zarci} means
> {ge ko'a e ko'e gi ko'a joi ko'e klama le zarci}: each of them
> goes, and also they go together.

Interesting idea, but I don't think it is consistent with the book's
description of jo'u. The book says jo'u considers the elements as
individuals, but they are inseperable. You're example, expands like
so:
ge ko'a .e ko'e gi ko'a joi ko'e klama be le zarci be'o cei broda
ko'a .e ko'e broda .ije ko'a joi ko'e broda
ko'a broda .ije ko'e broda .ije ko'a joi ko'e broda

I don't think this is true for jo'u, because it allows the arguments
to be seperated out and thus makes the claims about just one at a
time.

I think it's a bit more like {piro lu'o ko'a joi ko'e}. But that's
probably not quite right.

> All that is about sumti connection though. I can't very well
> tell what the difference is between {broda je brode} and
> {broda joi brode}, so though {broda jo'u brode} would mean
> (if what I said before holds) {gu'e broda je brode gi broda joi
> brode}, I don't know what that is.

broda jo'u brode makes sense in that it would prevent an expanded
interpretation:

ti xunre je blabi ractu
could be (but not neccesarily)
ti xunre ractu .ije blabi ractu

If what I meant was that it was pink, i'd say
ti xunre joi blabi ractu

(contrived) If I meant it had a more or less even distribution
of white coloring and red coloring (i.e. if every other hair were
a different color), such that it couldn't be called just white or
just red, I might say
ti xunre jo'u blabi ractu

The nonlogical conncectives are much clearer for me with sumti
though, so I'm probably wrong :)

-- 
Jordan DeLong - [email-masked]
lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u
sei la mark. tuen. cusku