From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Sep 21 20:22:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 22 Sep 2002 03:22:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 59090 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2002 03:22:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Sep 2002 03:22:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2002 03:22:05 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17sxLr-0008VM-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:24:07 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17sxL7-0008Uw-00; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:23:21 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17sxL4-0008Ui-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:23:18 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g8M3RaGZ070191 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:27:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g8M3RaBu070190 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:27:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:27:36 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Translation request Message-ID: <20020922032736.GA69950@allusion.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 1460 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 22, 2002 at 02:59:50AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote: > la djorden cusku di'e > >Though I think if someone wanted the meaning you're suggesting it'd > >still be better to use a nonlogical connective like jo'u (or maybe > >joi?). >=20 > I don't really know what {jo'u} means, though I thought of > something the other day that might be it: >=20 > {ko'a e ko'e klama le zarci} means that ko'a goes to the market > and ko'e goes to the market, but the two actions need not be > related. {ko'a joi ko'e klama le zarci} means that as a team they > go, but it does not entail that {ko'a klama} or {ko'e klama}, in > some cases it might be enough that only one of them does the actual > moving. So I suggest that {ko'a jo'u ko'e klama le zarci} means > {ge ko'a e ko'e gi ko'a joi ko'e klama le zarci}: each of them > goes, and also they go together. Interesting idea, but I don't think it is consistent with the book's description of jo'u. The book says jo'u considers the elements as individuals, but they are inseperable. You're example, expands like so: ge ko'a .e ko'e gi ko'a joi ko'e klama be le zarci be'o cei broda ko'a .e ko'e broda .ije ko'a joi ko'e broda ko'a broda .ije ko'e broda .ije ko'a joi ko'e broda I don't think this is true for jo'u, because it allows the arguments to be seperated out and thus makes the claims about just one at a time. I think it's a bit more like {piro lu'o ko'a joi ko'e}. But that's probably not quite right. > All that is about sumti connection though. I can't very well > tell what the difference is between {broda je brode} and > {broda joi brode}, so though {broda jo'u brode} would mean > (if what I said before holds) {gu'e broda je brode gi broda joi > brode}, I don't know what that is. broda jo'u brode makes sense in that it would prevent an expanded interpretation: ti xunre je blabi ractu could be (but not neccesarily) ti xunre ractu .ije blabi ractu If what I meant was that it was pink, i'd say ti xunre joi blabi ractu (contrived) If I meant it had a more or less even distribution of white coloring and red coloring (i.e. if every other hair were a different color), such that it couldn't be called just white or just red, I might say ti xunre jo'u blabi ractu The nonlogical conncectives are much clearer for me with sumti though, so I'm probably wrong :) --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9jTioDrrilS51AZ8RArR+AJ4/bA2Fc44Bq6tBo7ZwKXMznRkiKQCgr2BW 40K9d8408yKq9QWBDuALe2A= =chaH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb--