From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Sep 21 20:36:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 22 Sep 2002 03:36:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 32330 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2002 03:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Sep 2002 03:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2002 03:36:49 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17sxa7-0000py-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:38:51 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17sxZ9-0000em-00; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:37:51 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17sxYs-0000df-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:37:34 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g8M3fpGZ070304 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:41:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g8M3fobR070303 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:41:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:41:50 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Sets and classes Message-ID: <20020922034150.GB69950@allusion.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="U+BazGySraz5kW0T" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 1462 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --U+BazGySraz5kW0T Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 22, 2002 at 03:07:30AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote: > la djorden cusku di'e >=20 > > > But does not {na selcmi da} entail {na selcmi}? How could the > > > second one be false if the first one is true? > > > >The first: "x1 is not a set with a member". (kinda clunky; easier > >to translate the equivalent naku da zo'u selcmi da: "It is not > >true that there is an X, such that x1 is a set with member X". > > > >The second: "x1 is not a set." > > > >Very very different, pe'i. >=20 > In English yes. But English "set" is not a relationship between > things, it is a simple description. Saying that containing 0 things is the same as not being a container would be pretty broken, though. We shouldn't just deny that 0 is a valid number. su'o da selcmi node =3D=3D su'o da selcmi naku de =3D=3D su'o da naku de zo'u da selcmi de =3D=3D naku roda de zo'u da selcmi de It is false that, for all X there is a Y such that X is a set containing Y. i.e., that says exactly what you'd expect from the the first one: su'o da selcmi node there is at least one set which contains nothing. > > > One could ask, does {lo selcmi be no da} belong to {lo'i selcmi}? > > > I don't see how it could. > > > >I don't see how it couldn't. >=20 > Then a bicycle, which is {lo selcmi be noda}, is a member of > {lo'i selcmi} too? Is there anything that is not a member? Since when is a bicycle a set? A bicycle can't go into x1 of selcmi. > > > {zilselcmi} should cover all sets though, including the empty one. > > > >I think selcmi should also. >=20 > Only if it can be interpreted as {selcmi be zi'o}, which may very > well end up being what happens. I don't see why you can't have it be a selcmi be noda. 0 is as valid a number as anything else. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --U+BazGySraz5kW0T Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9jTv+DrrilS51AZ8RAof7AJ47OV9DdfvlE8LiXWdtll57x+vhOgCfVJ+F BbJCxjJy7CfuqGWrAVLdg5M= =b/+x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --U+BazGySraz5kW0T--