From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sat Sep 21 21:13:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 22 Sep 2002 04:13:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 26143 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2002 04:13:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Sep 2002 04:13:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.180) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2002 04:13:51 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:13:51 -0700 Received: from 200.69.6.24 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 04:13:51 GMT To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Sets and classes Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 04:13:51 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Sep 2002 04:13:51.0938 (UTC) FILETIME=[7563CA20:01C261EE] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.69.6.24] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=6071566 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 la djorden cusku di'e >Saying that containing 0 things is the same as not being a container >would be pretty broken, though. If it contains 0 things it is not containing. With Lojban it is usually more intuitive to think of predicates as verbs. >We shouldn't just deny that 0 is a >valid number. Nobody is denying that. >su'o da selcmi node == >su'o da selcmi naku de == >su'o da naku de zo'u da selcmi de == >naku roda de zo'u da selcmi de >It is false that, for all X there is a Y such that X is a set >containing Y. > >i.e., that says exactly what you'd expect from the the first one: > su'o da selcmi node > there is at least one set which contains nothing. It says there is at least one thing that is not a selcmi of anything, but nowhere does it say that that thing is a set. >I don't see why you can't have it be a selcmi be noda. 0 is as valid >a number as anything else. Then would you say too that {lo patfu be noda} is a member of {lo'i patfu}? A better gloss for {selcmi} might be "membered thing". Is the empty set a "membered thing"? mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com