From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Sep 21 21:50:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_3); 22 Sep 2002 04:50:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 13909 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2002 04:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Sep 2002 04:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2002 04:50:17 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17syjE-0004YI-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:52:20 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17syig-0004Xx-00; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:51:46 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17syid-0004Xo-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 21:51:43 -0700 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g8M4u0GZ072363 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 23:56:00 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g8M4u0Fl072362 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 23:56:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 23:56:00 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Sets and classes Message-ID: <20020922045600.GA71179@allusion.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 1466 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 22, 2002 at 04:13:51AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote: > la djorden cusku di'e > >Saying that containing 0 things is the same as not being a container > >would be pretty broken, though. >=20 > If it contains 0 things it is not containing. With Lojban it is > usually more intuitive to think of predicates as verbs. Sure it isn't containing, but ja'a it is a container. Lojban's brivla places claim more than just the relationship to the other places. For example, as we were discussing earlier, putting something in x1 of carce claims that it has wheels, even though there is no place for the wheels. si'a putting something in x1 of selcmi claims it is a set in addition to claiming it has the member(s) in x2. It's just plain unfair to 0 to say that it's not on-par with the other numbers here. ;P > >We shouldn't just deny that 0 is a > >valid number. >=20 > Nobody is denying that. If you say that there's a special provision that if a selcmi contains 0 things it isn't a selcmi, then you are treating 0 special. > >su'o da selcmi node =3D=3D > >su'o da selcmi naku de =3D=3D > >su'o da naku de zo'u da selcmi de =3D=3D > >naku roda de zo'u da selcmi de > >It is false that, for all X there is a Y such that X is a set > >containing Y. > > > >i.e., that says exactly what you'd expect from the the first one: > > su'o da selcmi node > > there is at least one set which contains nothing. >=20 > It says there is at least one thing that is not a selcmi of > anything, but nowhere does it say that that thing is a set. Yes it does. It is in x1 of selcmi. Of course, the assertion *can* be a false one (as you would likely contend). But my point is that da selcmi node isn't the same as da na selcmi (though, it would of course be the same as da na selcmi de). > >I don't see why you can't have it be a selcmi be noda. 0 is as valid > >a number as anything else. >=20 > Then would you say too that {lo patfu be noda} is a member of > {lo'i patfu}? I don't know about that one. Maybe, maybe not. It seems that x1 of patfu doesn't make an additional claim about x1, like carce does about wheels, so maybe not. However I think lo klama be fi noda is a member of lo'i klama, so you can use that if you want :) > A better gloss for {selcmi} might be "membered thing". > Is the empty set a "membered thing"? It is as much as nonempty sets are. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9jU1fDrrilS51AZ8RAmBKAKDKEYmOo4semFa54JDpUIwo/brdBACfUpM3 4dHfZaFJ25svYCyfuvCyeaI= =c5NF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn--