From xod@thestonecutters.net Sat Sep 28 00:08:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 28 Sep 2002 07:08:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 10076 invoked from network); 28 Sep 2002 07:08:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Sep 2002 07:08:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Sep 2002 07:08:22 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17vBkn-0006Ci-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:11:05 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17vBk5-0006CP-00; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:10:21 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.111.194.10] (helo=granite.thestonecutters.net) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17vBk0-0006CG-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:10:17 -0700 Received: from localhost (xod@localhost) by granite.thestonecutters.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8S77WI70889 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 03:07:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from xod@thestonecutters.net) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 03:07:32 -0400 (EDT) To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: ka ka (was: Context Leapers) In-Reply-To: <15b.14e4b0f8.2ac61857@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020928023620.U70515-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 1660 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: xod@thestonecutters.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Invent Yourself Reply-To: xod@thestonecutters.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=110189215 X-Yahoo-Profile: throwing_back_the_apple On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 pycyn@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/27/2002 1:50:08 PM Central Daylight Time, > xod@thestonecutters.net writes: > > << > > This ni-like usage of ka, which of course is completely redundant with > > ni, is also seen right in 11.5:5.4. And ni is redundant with jei inasmuch > > as I don't see any real distinction in the sentence "The ``blueness of the > > picture'' discussed in Section 5 refers to the measurable amount of blue > > pigment (or other source of blueness), not to the degree of truth of the > > claim that blueness is present." > >> > Let's see. > 1). The {ni}-like {ka} is not redundant given {ni} since the qualitymof > anything is different from its quantity: "like the sky" is different from > "very intense" (meant quantitatively -- hrd to separate in English). If ka ce'u broda is meant to mean the quality of being a broda1, all is well. If ka is somehow meant to meant the non-numeric amount that ko'a belongs in broda1, it is better served with jei, and a clue to this is that ko'a is sitting where the ce'u belongs. > 2) 11.5.4&5 are both about the functions to values, not about the values > themselves, presumably "x is so blue" in the two different senses. The book explains this with a meaningless sentences: "Example 5.4 conveys that the blueness comes and goes, whereas Example 5.5 conveys that its quantity changes over time." Specifically, the "whereas" makes it mean ingless because there is no difference between the two clauses. (The high quality of the rest of the CLL makes the conceptual chaos of this notorious chapter all the more noticeable.) Drawing an analogy between ni and ka forces us to use a broken usage of ka. We are no longer talking about the quality of redness, but the (non-mathematically measured) *amount of the* quality of redness that's exhibited by X. And again, since we are discussing a sumti and not a tergismu, ka ce'u is not the tool for this job. Why anyone would resist the quantification of a scale so vigorously as to demand a separate, touchy-feely cmavo for it, is never explained. Presumably this comes from an ill-conceived attempt to mirror the English (and Latin?) concept duo of Quality and Quantity. I suppose the problem is illuminated if we replace "quality" with "property", though the constant need in these discussions to justify Lojban difficulties using subtle nuances of English terms grates on me. Bad craziness. > 3) Whatever is going on there, it is not indexed at {ka} . > > 4) The truth of a propsition is not the same as its intensity, despite the > parody one often sees of fuzzy logics -- e.g., the truth of "Joe is tall" > eventually (around 6') reaches pure True, the quantity keeps going (though it > also may not, since it is not the same as hw tall Joe is -- or the amount of > blue pigment) I can't agree. A tallness of 1 means infinitely tall. And nothing is gained by creating artificial limits upon such a fuzzy logic treatment. -- Before Sept. 11 there was not the present excited talk about a strike on Iraq. There is no evidence of any connection between Iraq and that act of terrorism. Why would that event change the situation? -- Howard Zinn