From gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch Sat Sep 28 11:18:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: gordon.dyke@bluewin.ch X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 28 Sep 2002 18:18:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 54426 invoked from network); 28 Sep 2002 18:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Sep 2002 18:18:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta2n.bluewin.ch) (195.186.4.220) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Sep 2002 18:18:13 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (62.202.164.188) by mta2n.bluewin.ch (Bluewin AG 6.5.027) id 3D7B3053001F04B5 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 20:18:11 +0200 Message-ID: <007701c2671b$6cb6ea60$bca4ca3e@oemcomputer> To: "jboste" References: Subject: Re: [lojban] metre Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 20:17:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "G. Dyke" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=81437350 X-Yahoo-Profile: gregvdyke And: > Three questions on metre. > > 1. > In English metre, in certain environments it is normal for > stressed syllables to be metrically weak and for unstressed > syllables to be metrically strong. To what extent is this > forbidden for Lojban (assuming we want verse Lojban to > self-segment properly)? well, strict rules on brivla and multisyllable cmavo (CV'V), otherwise, as you please (with cmavo joining as a metre aid). What worries me is the pauses that would have to be inserted after stressed cmavo before ?brivla (or is it before an obligatory stress?) [sidequestion: it is {MI.TAvla}, is it {tA.xirlI'u} or {tAxirlI'u}? {tA.zO'o} or {tAzO'o}?] > > > 2. > Given that all Lojban speakers can (I posit) speak with an > accent in which the buffer vowel is never elided, while > not all Lojban speakers can speak with an accent in which > the buffer vowel is always elided, would you agree that > metrical Lojban verse that aspires to be recitable by all > speakers should treat all buffer vowels as unelided? > I've never tried, and I very much doubt I would understand someone who speaks Lojban using buffer vowels. I expect I'd have enough trouble understanding Craig and pc (with their version of /'/) I think that buffer vowels can, if necessary be part of the metre (either implicitely through feel for rhythm or explicitely much in the same way as Wordsworth uses "o'er" instead or "over" to reduce to one syllable) Any lojban poetry ?recitist should be able to pronounce all the consonant clusters without a buffer vowel. It's like imposing on English verse that it follow the rules of grammar so that everybody can understand it (Well something similar, as most English poetry does follow the rules of grammar, this is not a very good simile) > 3. > Do you think that the native metres of Lojbanistan are made > up of regular patterns of strong and weak syllables? Yes, what else would they be made up of ? Greg