Subject: [lojban] Re: paroi ro mentu

From: Jordan DeLong <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 11:03:41 -0500

On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 12:02:03AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote:
> la and cusku di'e
> 
> >1. The general rule doesn't apply when, say, {e} is within the
> >scope of {na}. So it can't be taken for granted that it applies
> >to the present instance.
> 
> I used the case of {e} because it seemed to me to be more intuitive
> than {ro}. Of course {e} and {ro} are equally affected by things
> with scope. I believe {broda <tag> ko'a e ko'e} should always
> expand as {broda <tag> ko'a ije broda <tag> ko'e}, and if that
> holds, then {paroi ro mentu} has to mean "once per minute".

Huh? How's that? Expansion of {e} has nothing to do with {ro mentu}.

> >2. For {ci roi le pavdei ku joi le reldei} and {ci roi lei re djedi},
> >I would like to be sure that there is some way to say that the
> >three occasions are distributed throughout the two days, such
> >that {ci roi le pavdei} and {ci roi lei pa djedi} would be false.
> >If that is doable, then my reservations would be assuaged.
> 
> I don't understand why you want that. If {ciroi le jeftu} is
> true, it can also be true that {ciroi le pavdei}. Similarly for
> {ciroi lei ze djedi}, and {ciroi lei re djedi}.
> 
> >So what do these mean?
> >
> >ci roi ku ca re djedi
> > -- three occasions, each occurring over two days
> >ca re djedi ku ci roi
> > -- occurring on two days, thrice on each day
> >
> >Is that right?
> 
> That's what I would like, yes. The other possibility is that
> they both mean the second, if tags never have scope over
> following terms, but I don't see the advantage of that.

No one is debating that tags have scope over following terms. The
question is whether they have scope over a sumti contained in the
*same* term. When you say "ciroi ku", you have made a full term;
there's no debate on this because the book clearly says that each
full term has scope over all the terms to the left of it, unless
you override it with termsets.

I think you missed his use of "ku ca" maybe? Under either approach
both of them mean exactly what And said. The question is what
{ciroi re djedi} means.

Under the left-to-right approach the following interpretation:
ciroi re djedi
three times in 2 days
Yours is
ciroi re djedi
three times for each of two days

> >Remind me what is to be gained by using roi + sumti rather
> >than roi + ku?
> 
> That the sumti gives the exact interval in which the repetitions
> occur, {ca} just gives an event with some overlap. I suppose
> {ze'a ro mentu paroi} would work just as well as {paroi ro mentu}.

I agree. Of course, as was likely And's intention to suggest, you
*can* express either of the meanings which are being suggested for
"paroi ro mentu" through seperate mechanisms. However I don't think
there should much doubt of that for almost anything in lojban, so
I'm not sure what his point was.

-- 
Jordan DeLong - [email-masked]
lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u
sei la mark. tuen. cusku