From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sun Sep 29 09:07:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 29 Sep 2002 16:07:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 87399 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2002 16:07:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Sep 2002 16:07:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.188) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 2002 16:07:05 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:07:05 -0700 Received: from 200.69.6.30 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:07:05 GMT To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: paroi ro mentu Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:07:05 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Sep 2002 16:07:05.0731 (UTC) FILETIME=[415EA530:01C267D2] From: "Jorge Llambias" X-Originating-IP: [200.69.6.30] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=6071566 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 la djorden cusku di'e >You're breaking the same rules again. "paroi ro le re djedi" is a >single term. You can't just bring parts of it forward, all of it >must go if you want to keep the same meaning. You could do > paroi roda voi djedi zo'u mi klama la paris. {paroi ro le re djedi} is a single term as much as {paroi le pavdei e le reldei} is a single term. Whatever rule applies to one (scopewise) should apply to the other. The rule I think is the Right Thing is that {e}/{ro} have scope over {pa} in that example. >It's quite clear to me that either convention for tag+sumti scopes >can be delt with consistently, and the book doesn't say which is >right. The book does say thing go left-to-right for terms, but >since these are in the same term in the parse it's not a definite >answer. I think left-to-right makes most sense, however, because it >seems to be what would be expected when using a tag which has a >quantifier in it, since everything else is left-to-right. Notice however that it's not just tags with explicit PA that are involved. For example {ze'a ro mentu} with my interpretation says that the event happens in each medium-length minute interval. With the other interpretation it says that the event happens in the medium interval consisting of all minutes (surely not very medium- length). >This might be something that is worth gathering usage statistics >on PAroi+sumti or just plain tag+sumti for all tags which can have >quantifiers (re'u, etc). If people have been mainly using it with >right-to-left, then since the book isn't definite here we would >probably go that way, but if not the normal futher-left-gets-wider-scope >rule seems to make sense. To me that rule does not make sense in this case because it forces a kind of massification of the quantified sumti, which when wanted should be done by other means. mu'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com