Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: sticky hypothesis

From: "Jorge Llambias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:21:40 +0000

la djorden cusku di'e

>[...]
> > xorxes:
> > >I think you want {ru'a} not {da'i} for this.
> >
> > That may well be. I am not sure at all about the difference
> > between what CLL calls an assumption (for ru'a) and an
> > hypothesis. But as CLL tends to make {ru'a} close to {e'u},
> > I would rather go for {da'i} in may case.
>
>I think this is most certainly a proper use for {da'i}. Much of
>the anti-da'i-ism seems to be largely caused by a sort of agenda
>to get one's own useless experimental cmavo to be used (in this
>case mu'ei).

No agenda, I assure you. Even though I don't dislike {mu'ei},
it is not my experimental cmavo. Besides, I use {da'i} much
more than I ever use {ru'a}, so it is hardly anti-da'i-ism
on my part.

Having said that, I don't have very clear the distinction between
{da'i} and {ru'a}. Do you?

The kind of thing I'm thinking is that {ru'a} asks the listener
to consider what is said as if it were part of the real world,
whereas {da'i} marks it as not part of the real world and not to
be taken as such.

For example:

ru'a la djan zvati la paris i ru'acu'i ju'o dy penmi la meris
i ru'anai my zvati py
Let's assume John is in Paris. In that case, surely he met Mary.
She is there (independently of our hypothesis).

da'i la djan zvati la paris i da'i ju'o dy penmi la meris
i da'inai my zvati py
John would be in Paris (but isn't). He would surely meet Mary.
She is there.

I'm just throwing ideas, I don't really know what the distinction
between da'i and ru'a is. How do you see the distinction?

>I don't like this. ru'anai doesn't end the hypothesis, it says
>that whatever it is attached to is not assumption.

That's a way of ending the hypothesis.

>Text scope was
>invented for this; you should use a modal tag + tu'e ... tu'u for
>the whole block, pe'i. The book doesn't support this (ab)use of ru'a.

But there is a distinction to be made between a hypothesis and
what follows from a hypothesis, which is not additionally
hypothesized, but is not non-hypothetical either.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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