From nessus@free.fr Tue Oct 01 12:28:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: nessus@free.fr X-Apparently-To: Lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 1 Oct 2002 19:28:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 80158 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2002 19:23:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2002 19:23:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mel-rto3.wanadoo.fr) (193.252.19.233) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2002 19:23:28 -0000 Received: from mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.69) by mel-rto3.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D760D7C00F6847E; Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:22:54 +0200 Received: from ftiq2awxk6 (193.248.41.44) by mel-rta9.wanadoo.fr (6.5.007) id 3D80120400B8AFCB; Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:22:54 +0200 Message-ID: <001a01c26981$b22593e0$2c29f8c1@ftiq2awxk6> To: "John Cowan" , "And Rosta" Cc: "Lojban" References: Subject: Re: [lojban] gizmu Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:34:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Lionel Vidal" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=47678341 X-Yahoo-Profile: cmacinf And: > > > Assimilation is natural, yet language-particular. Yes, but because some others phonetic specific facts ususally hinder or modify the normal assimilation. >Contrast russian > > > _glasnost_ /glasnost/ with English /glaznost/. Actually the assimilation is indeed a general rule in russian as well but in a slightly modified form: all unvoiced before voiced, except i kratkaie, r, l, m, n and v, become voiced. e.g. to do [sdielat] is pronounced zdelat, but 3 [tri] is pronounce tri. This rule explains the pronouncation of glasnost. John: > > The latter in Russian means "eyeness" (if it means anything). [glaz] writen with a z is 'eye', and I am not sure 'glaznost' exists. But [glasnost] with 's' means advertisement and by extension to make public. The extension is more apparent with the french word 'publicité'. (I'll stop here: it is way too painful it to write russian words with a latin-font-only-able MUA !) > Indeed so. But synchronically, word-internal /sn/ is not impossible in > native vocab. It is indeed possible, but that will remain stable only if others phonetic or morphological considerations stronger than assimilation hold. That being said, note that 's' is a bit special in indo-european languages phonetic, because of its constrictive nature. For instance, most real 's' have simply disappeared before voiced consonnants other that 'r' as soon as the transition to ancient latin. And this disappearing is explained by a voicing which weakened the consonant. -- Lionel