From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Wed Oct 02 07:01:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 14:01:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 9515 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 14:01:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 14:01:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 14:01:46 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17wk7V-0004N0-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:04:57 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17wk6s-0004MY-00; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:04:18 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from com1.uclan.ac.uk ([193.61.255.3]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17wk6j-0004MP-00; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 07:04:09 -0700 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:28:24 +0100 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:01:24 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:01:06 +0100 To: fracture , lojban-list , lojban-out Subject: [lojban] Re: tu'o du'u (was Re: xoi'a) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline X-archive-position: 1818 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: And Rosta Reply-To: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=810630 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin jordan: >>> lojban-out@lojban.org 10/02/02 02:39am >>> On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 02:17:39AM +0100, And Rosta wrote: #> Other jboskepre have used "tu'o du'u", but the abbreviation could #> equally well be short for "lo'e du'u". #> #> If I'd been designing Lojban syntax I'd allow a selbri to function # #I assume you meant "bridi". I meant selbri, but I could have said "bridi" -- it's just a matter of syntactic perspective. #> as a sumti ("mi djuno lo'e du'u do klama" => "djuno mi klama do"), #> but given the constraints of Lojban grammar it would be nice to #> be able to reduce it to "mi djuno XOI do klama", where XOI is short #> for lo'e du'u. # #I don't see how you could possibly allow "djuno mi klama do" parse #"mi klama do" as a sumti without having an ambigious grammar. How's #the reader to know it's not djuno mi [klama do] or [djuno] mi klama #do, etc. # #Oh I guess you're suggesting using only prefix notation for the #predicates, so "mi djuno" isn't valid? Yes. #While that would be more l#ike normal predicate logic notations I don't think it fits well #with (very useful) things like bridi tail connectives. There are workarounds (that, appropriately, would be more complex than the pattern without connectives. But this is something to discuss on Engelang, not here, nor even on Jboske. #> {le du'u} is used a lot by everybody (though {le} is not really #> appropriate there), and many uses of {le nu} should have {du'u} #> instead (though maybe usage is improving in this regard?). # #Sure, many uses of "le nu" should be something like "lo'e nu" or #"lo nu" or whatnot. But I can't think of an example of an incorrect #"le" with du'u like you're talking about. Did you have something in mind? "le du'u" = "each of certain du'u". If there is only 1 du'u for a given propositional content, then reference will succeed, but it's a bit like referring to my head as "each of certain of my head(s)" -- rather misleading. "le broda" implies the question "Which broda?". So "le gerku" is sensible, because "Which dog?" is a reasonable response, but "le mamta be mi" is odd because "Which mother of yours?" is redundant, though it can also be interpreted as "She (i.e. my mother)", in which case the {le} is not odd. --And.