From lojbab@lojban.org Thu Oct 03 17:44:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 4 Oct 2002 00:44:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 16025 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2002 00:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2002 00:44:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Oct 2002 00:44:44 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17xGdR-0005XX-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:48:05 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17xGcl-0005X3-00; Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:47:23 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao03.cox.net ([68.1.17.242]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17xGcc-0005Ws-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:47:14 -0700 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20021004004321.PAQA16428.lakemtao03.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:43:21 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003195927.031e3ec0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:15:47 -0400 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: a new kind of fundamentalism In-Reply-To: <3D9CC84B.6070002@bilkent.edu.tr> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003064510.03166ac0@pop.east.cox.net> <002101c26aed$263fbd20$af9a0950@ftiq2awxk6> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 1892 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Robert LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 01:44 AM 10/4/02 +0300, Robin Turner wrote: >Lionel Vidal wrote: >[snippet] > >Sorry, but this is not true: there are numerous example of natlangs dramatic > >prescriptive changes (and on scale that has nothing to do with a few cmavos > >more or less, with a population size that has nothing to do with lojban > >community present size, and regardless of an existing voluminous existing > >corpus), that were consciously accepted by users on a short period. ... >A >speaker of a conlang is more likely to say, in the immortal words of >Eric Cartman, "Screw you guys, I'm going home." Important to note here is that at this point a large portion of Lojbanists are English speakers, and English is historically anti-academy prescription. There has never been much chance of English speakers accepting an academy telling them that the language has changed (or for that matter that they are "saying it wrong"). Norms in English come about through lots of example usage setting an example (e.g. the spread of British or American English overseas through educated speakers and through television). As long as many Lojbanists are English natives, there will be prejudice against academy-dictated prescription. Hence the Cartman words. Secondly, we do not have the wherewithal to promulgate prescriptive changes. Large numbers of Lojbanists do not read the lists or any other single site, and we do not control any Lojban sites other than the official one which has megabytes of information. We can't control where people will draw their usage from, and it is more likely to be from past usage than from new prescription. Finally and most importantly for one key Lojbanic purpose, linguists respect such usage-based norms and evolution and do not much respect prescriptivism. So long as prescribers have significant clout over the language, we will have trouble gaining respect as a language (and community) worthy of serious linguistic investigation. Rather, we will be classed with the hoards of conlangs that never stopped prescribing until they drove their prospective users away or forced splintering from those who would not accept the prescription. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org