Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Why linguists might be interested in Lojban (was: RE: Re: a new kind of fundamentalism

From: Robert LeChevalier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:26:36 -0400

At 11:23 AM 10/8/02 -0400, xod wrote:
>On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
> > 2. It fills in the gaps in the language design so that we have a complete
> > language that can be learned as a language for experimental
> > purposes. JCB's original "engineering" was so incomplete, that he reported
> > that the users could not use it - it sort of just "rattled around in their
> > brains" - there was not enough flesh on the design for the language to be
> > spoken. We'e spent 40 years since then adding additional design so that it
> > no longer rattles. But it seems impossible to construct a complete
> > language, so at some point usage has to fill in the gaps.
>
>Interesting idea. What is a complete language? How can tell detect
>completion?

You can detect incompleteness.

> > We cannot expect more than incidental mention of Lojban until we get people
> > willing to spend money and time doing Lojban research at more than the
> > hobbyist level. We're also unlikely to get any major research results from
> > the language so long as it wholly a spare time endeavor. The incidental
> > mentions we've been getting serve to establish credibility that warrants
> > serious expenditure, but is not the end in itself.
>
>What if hobbyists could achieve L1 fluency?

Many linguists would claim that is impossible. Indeed, absent actual 
native Lojban speakers, it isn't clear that L1 fluency is well-defined. At 
best we can compare with the fluency levels shown by 2nd language speakers 
of other languages.

At various times, I've posted the 5 step criteria used to judge fluency, 
where level 4 and 5 are typically only found in native speakers, and people 
who can pass as natives. I suspect that even the best of us Lojbanists are 
at most a high level 2.

Only with immersion can L2 speakers sometimes reach level 4 in all skills, 
though I imagine that reading comprehension could go that high, since one 
can practice it without immersion. But only if people can write at level 4 
skill level can someone read at that level.

In terms of current Lojban, my guess is that a level 4 person, when 
confronted by ANY "how to say it" question that is worthy of weeks of 
jboske debate would know the answer off the top of his head, and it would 
be unarguably correct. (A level 5 speaker could come up with multiple ways 
to say it and explain the pros and cons and nuances of each in terms that 
everyone would recognize as unarguably correct, and do the explanation in 
fluent Lojban as well.) Thus if we had level 4 speakers, jboskepre would 
be having very different answers.

lojbab

-- 
lojbab [email-masked]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org