From lojbab@lojban.org Tue Oct 08 12:31:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 8 Oct 2002 19:31:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 72191 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2002 19:31:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Oct 2002 19:31:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao03.cox.net) (68.1.17.242) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Oct 2002 19:31:44 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20021008193142.FSET16428.lakemtao03.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:31:42 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008145728.00a8e2a0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:26:36 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Why linguists might be interested in Lojban (was: RE: Re: a new kind of fundamentalism In-Reply-To: <20021008112028.N18630-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008073822.03323d10@pop.east.cox.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 11:23 AM 10/8/02 -0400, xod wrote: >On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > > 2. It fills in the gaps in the language design so that we have a complete > > language that can be learned as a language for experimental > > purposes. JCB's original "engineering" was so incomplete, that he reported > > that the users could not use it - it sort of just "rattled around in their > > brains" - there was not enough flesh on the design for the language to be > > spoken. We'e spent 40 years since then adding additional design so that it > > no longer rattles. But it seems impossible to construct a complete > > language, so at some point usage has to fill in the gaps. > >Interesting idea. What is a complete language? How can tell detect >completion? You can detect incompleteness. > > We cannot expect more than incidental mention of Lojban until we get people > > willing to spend money and time doing Lojban research at more than the > > hobbyist level. We're also unlikely to get any major research results from > > the language so long as it wholly a spare time endeavor. The incidental > > mentions we've been getting serve to establish credibility that warrants > > serious expenditure, but is not the end in itself. > >What if hobbyists could achieve L1 fluency? Many linguists would claim that is impossible. Indeed, absent actual native Lojban speakers, it isn't clear that L1 fluency is well-defined. At best we can compare with the fluency levels shown by 2nd language speakers of other languages. At various times, I've posted the 5 step criteria used to judge fluency, where level 4 and 5 are typically only found in native speakers, and people who can pass as natives. I suspect that even the best of us Lojbanists are at most a high level 2. Only with immersion can L2 speakers sometimes reach level 4 in all skills, though I imagine that reading comprehension could go that high, since one can practice it without immersion. But only if people can write at level 4 skill level can someone read at that level. In terms of current Lojban, my guess is that a level 4 person, when confronted by ANY "how to say it" question that is worthy of weeks of jboske debate would know the answer off the top of his head, and it would be unarguably correct. (A level 5 speaker could come up with multiple ways to say it and explain the pros and cons and nuances of each in terms that everyone would recognize as unarguably correct, and do the explanation in fluent Lojban as well.) Thus if we had level 4 speakers, jboskepre would be having very different answers. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org