From lojbab@lojban.org Tue Oct 08 14:21:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 8 Oct 2002 21:21:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 13594 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2002 21:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Oct 2002 21:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakemtao04.cox.net) (68.1.17.241) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Oct 2002 21:21:05 -0000 Received: from lojban.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20021008212105.JNOO1315.lakemtao04.cox.net@lojban.lojban.org> for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:21:05 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008165405.03177ec0@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: rlechevalier@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 17:15:39 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: Why linguists might be interested in Lojban (was: RE: Re: a new kind of fundamentalism In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008145728.00a8e2a0@pop.east.cox.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab At 04:00 PM 10/8/02 -0400, Craig wrote: > >At various times, I've posted the 5 step criteria used to judge fluency, > >where level 4 and 5 are typically only found in native speakers, and people > >who can pass as natives. I suspect that even the best of us Lojbanists are > >at most a high level 2. > >I don't believe I've ever seen this. Could you send it to me? I'll send the pointers to the list, since no one should have to look through the archives. Here are the two 5-point scales in common use. Both are similar; the ILR scale is the one that I have been referring to that used to be called the foreign service scale. http://www.utm.edu/~globeg/ilrhome.shtml http://www.sil.org/lingualinks/LANGUAGELEARNING/OtherResources/ACTFLProficiencyGuidelines/TheACTFLGuidelines.htm The following shows the ILR scale as applied to Spanish language learners, and comments on the unlikelihood of actually achieving level 4 and 5. http://www.platiquemos-letstalk.com/rating.html Note that the ILR calls levels 3 and 4 "professional skill levels". My comment to xod about hobbyists achieving level 4 recognizes that hobbyists often can achieve some level of professional skill in a discipline, but seldom would be considered "advanced" unless their hobby becomes a full time (pre)occupation. I would like someone to add this info (in some form) to the wiki at the appropriate point. The following has the short version of the ILR scale, which might be appropriate with pointers to the full version which is too long (someone should check for copyright restriction before copying the standard wholesale, but I think it was developed by the US government and hence is not restricted). http://www.sil.org/lingualinks/LANGUAGELEARNING/MangngYrLnggLrnngPrgrm/TheILRFSIProficiencyScale.htm lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org