From xod@thestonecutters.net Wed Oct 09 11:51:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 9 Oct 2002 18:51:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 34425 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2002 18:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Oct 2002 18:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Oct 2002 18:51:51 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 17zLzq-0004lb-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:55:50 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17zLz1-0004l1-00; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:54:59 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.111.194.10] (helo=granite.thestonecutters.net) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17zLyx-0004ks-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:54:55 -0700 Received: from localhost (xod@localhost) by granite.thestonecutters.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g99Ione25108 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:50:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from xod@thestonecutters.net) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:50:49 -0400 (EDT) To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Alice style and finalisation (was:The Alice Translation Has Moved And Changed) In-Reply-To: <02100914182018.02775@neofelis> Message-ID: <20021009144308.K23951-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 2065 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: xod@thestonecutters.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Invent Yourself Reply-To: xod@thestonecutters.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=110189215 X-Yahoo-Profile: throwing_back_the_apple On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Wednesday 09 October 2002 11:44, Jorge Llambias wrote: > > You're mostly seeing my final version. In particular, I removed > > the dots from Pierre and Robin's parts to harmonize the whole > > thing. I tried to follow the word order of the original as > > much as possible in keeping with the sense. > > The dots should go back in throughout. The Thais and Ancient Greeks may > disagree, but I find a text without punctuation very hard to read. > > As to word order, if you have two FA tags in one bridi to preserve word > order, it's too much. One SE and one FA is okay, e.g. le selci'a cu se fanva > fi le xelso (which means the same as {fanva le selci'a le xelso}, but the > latter might look up, see someone, and assume you uttered an observative > about the passing translator). SE induces the reader to keep track of two new places; FA only one. Each FA is only half a SE, two FAs are worth one SE, so two FAs are not "too much". Also, SE greatly multiplies the number of possible meanings of the leading sumti, and causes backwards reinterpretations (gardenpathing), whereas FA comes before the tagged sumti and announces the conversion *before* the sumti is read. On one level of learning, the reader has to pause, ponder or look up every brivla place. On another level, all the places are fluently memorized and a SE with two FAs thrown in presents no difficulty. But between those two levels, FA is a little less confusing than SE. ---- Before Sept. 11 there was not the present excited talk about a strike on Iraq. There is no evidence of any connection between Iraq and that act of terrorism. Why would that event change the situation? -- Howard Zinn