From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Oct 16 03:34:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 16 Oct 2002 10:34:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 53059 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2002 10:34:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 Oct 2002 10:34:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Oct 2002 10:34:50 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 181laP-0001MI-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 03:39:33 -0700 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 181lZq-0001M1-00; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 03:38:58 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 16 Oct 2002 03:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 181lZl-0001Ls-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 03:38:54 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D14412C08 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:34:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from bilkent.edu.tr (neo.fen.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.97.69]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C6812BE8 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:33:55 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <3DAD6AC9.6060104@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:34:01 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: brivla for 'intend' References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020300 X-archive-position: 2208 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: robin From: robin Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out And Rosta wrote: > Jordan: > >>On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 08:35:16PM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote: >> >>>la and cusku di'e >>> >>>>What is the best brivla for "x intends that p, x intends to p", given that >>>>intention does not entail action (or deliberate inaction) and that, ba'e >>>>ti'e, >>>>intention is a psychological primitive (i.e. doesn't reduce to a complex of >>>>other notions)? >>> >>>I tend to use {zukte fi} for lack of a better option, but it is certainly a >>>gap >>>in the vocabulary. >> >>I've been using djica for this. I think english stuff like "I >>intended/meant to do that, but ...", is just mi pu djica ... > > > {djica} is pretty good, but I think it makes sense to say "I wanted > to go to Paris but I didn't intend to go", and "We intended to > execute the prisoners because we had to execute them, even though > we didn't want to execute the prisoners". > > So there is still the gap in the vocab, even if zukte and djica can > fill much of it. I would view intention as a species of desire, but then I tend to view a lot of things like that (need, will, obligation etc.). As Harry Frnakurt (I think) pointed out, intention adds a level of commitment to a desire, so "I wanted to go to Paris but I didn't intend to go" menas something like "I had a desire to go to Paris, but other factors (e.g. the price of the plane tickets) meant that I had no plans to act on that desire." The prisoners example is trickier. I would argue that with the possible exception of unconscious reflexes, it is impossible to do something without wanting to do it, but that's a controversial position. I would argue that the people in question have a desire to shoot the prisoners AND a desire not to shoot the prisoners. It's tricky because the second desire is the one which would take precedence under normal circumstances, while the first is the consequentce of another desire (e.g. to avoid getting shot by your commanding officer). robin.tr -- "The other major kind of computer is the "Apple", which I do not recommend, because it is a wuss-o-rama New-Age computer that you basically just plug in and use." -Dave Barry Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Üniversitesi Ankara Turkey http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin