From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Nov 05 17:17:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 01:17:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 52105 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 01:17:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 01:17:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 01:17:51 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 189EpL-00007c-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:17:51 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189EpE-00006u-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:17:44 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189Ep9-00006b-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:17:40 -0800 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gA61NMiR054966 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:23:22 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id gA61NLDo054965 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:23:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:23:21 -0600 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: What the heck is this crap? Message-ID: <20021106012321.GA54404@allusion.net> References: <20021105222732.GH22843@digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021105222732.GH22843@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 2436 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 02:27:32PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: [...] > To wit: it is the opinion of the old-time experts that >=20 > ca ro djedi lo nanmu cu cinba la meris > lo nanmu ca ro djedi cu cinba la meris >=20 > are distinct in meaning. >=20 > More frighteningly, this implies that: >=20 > ca le nu broda kei lo nanmu cu cinba la meris > lo nanmu ca le nu broda kei cu cinba la meris [...] > And pretty much everyone on jboske seems to agree with it. I don't > normally read jboske, myself; xod pointed this out to me. Believe it or not, I agree with the jboskeists on this. In chapter 16, it says clearly that quantifiers scope to the right just like one would expect. This is said where: ro da de zo'u da viska de Everything sees something. da ro de zo'u da viska de There-is-an-X such-that-for-every-Y : X sees Y. It also says that "ro prenu" =3D=3D "ro da poi prenu" around example 6.5 It also says in chapter 6 that "PA broda" =3D=3D "PA lo ro broda" around section 8 "indefinite descriptions". Since =3D=3D is a transitive operator we can then say that ro da poi prenu =3D=3D ro lo prenu and that lo prenu =3D=3D su'o da poi prenu (without binding da of course). So the examples robin gives are in fact different -- moving them changes the meaning because the quantifiers move. pe'i this is all book lojban, though perhaps slightly hard to grok from the pages. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9yG8JDrrilS51AZ8RAmXzAKDHGa01GNu63srn6kYWwJ67qewTJACfYtDN JL4nKRVzx/9jH4z7HMfdoO8= =DMoc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c--