From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Nov 05 17:23:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 01:23:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 74311 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 01:23:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 01:23:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 01:23:27 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 189Eul-0000R6-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:23:27 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189Eub-0000QD-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:23:17 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189EuV-0000Om-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 17:23:11 -0800 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gA61SsiR055056 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:28:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id gA61Ssxk055055 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:28:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:28:54 -0600 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] zo'e = ? su'o de (was Re: What the heck is this crap?) Message-ID: <20021106012854.GB54404@allusion.net> References: <20021105222732.GH22843@digitalkingdom.org> <20021105183900.B73242-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Bn2rw/3z4jIqBvZU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021105183900.B73242-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 2437 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --Bn2rw/3z4jIqBvZU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 06:42:39PM -0500, Invent Yourself wrote: [...] > But it gets worse. According to Nick Nicholas, in a recent email to me: >=20 > > zo'e =3D su'o de > > > > ro bangu cu selfi'i zo'e =3D ro da poi bangu; su'o de zo'u: da selfinti= de > > (This is read as there being a possibly distinct de for each da) > > > > zo'e finti ro bangu =3D su'o de; ro da poi bangu zo'u: de finti da > > (This is read as there being at least one de inventing all da) This is definitely *not* book lojban (unless it's hiding somewhere), whether or not jboskepre agree on it. zo'e =3D=3D "implied value". This means it can mean things which don't claim existence, such as "lo'e pavyseljirna" or "lo'i cridrdrakone" (ok; well on that last I guess it depends on whether ro is importing, no? -- imho it would *suck* *ass* if ro were importing though, as lo'i broda wouldn't be something you could say when the set is empty, since the inner quantifier is ro. Also I gather that nonimporting universal quantifier is more standard in logic as well). This isn't the same as "su'o de" ("de") because it doesn't involve an existential quantifier. The only restrictions the book places on what zo'e can represent is that zo'e can't stand for "noda" and it can't stand for "zi'o". --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --Bn2rw/3z4jIqBvZU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9yHBWDrrilS51AZ8RAq2QAJ9wS07dOKED5jjeUgH7myjZXc3MBQCguHKu GCGfB78atCK5daBqNKo5BJc= =kwpe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Bn2rw/3z4jIqBvZU--