From a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Tue Nov 05 19:30:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 03:30:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 94270 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 03:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 03:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 03:30:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 189GtK-0001xq-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:30:06 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189Gsg-0001wK-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:29:26 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrin02.spray.se ([212.78.193.8] helo=mrin02.st1.spray.net) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189Gsb-0001vI-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:29:22 -0800 Received: from lmin06.st1.spray.net (unknown [212.78.202.106]) by mrin02.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12922399F3 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 04:28:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-70-63.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.70.63]) by lmin06.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6754D27D6C for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 04:28:47 +0100 (MET) To: Subject: [lojban] Re: What the heck is this crap? Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 03:30:37 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20021106001702.GR22843@digitalkingdom.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-archive-position: 2443 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: "And Rosta" Reply-To: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122260811 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin Robin: > On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 11:59:48PM -0000, And Rosta wrote: > > I don't see why you're reacting with such horror. People are always > > discovering issues like this that nobody has thought of before. It's > > inevitable that this happens > > Because these are fundamental changes to the semantics of the language > as used by people who actually converse in it > > (Duh?) Okay, but what are you saying? That it's inevitable that you will react with horror when we find (as we inevitably and continually do) some problem that hasn't been noticed hitherto? It simply isn't possible to invent 100% of a fully-fledged language from scratch, document it completely, and only then turn it over to the users. It needs to be explored -- 'beta-tested', I believe it's called with software. We're kind of at the debugging stage, and will be for the foreseeable future, though discovery of problem cases will hopefully get increasingly rare. Either we go the two-dialect (Hard and Soft Lojban) route that Lojbab and Nick have talked about, where Soft Lojban (= Naturalist Lojban) is shaped by the usage of people who actually converse in it and Hard Lojban is shaped by continuation of the established principles of Lojban grammar, or we accept that we are all just in the process of learning the language, and make mistakes, especially in spontaneous conversation, where mistakes are the norm even for native speakers. As far as I'm concerned, that choice is yours and I have no desire to make it for you. --And.