From a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Tue Nov 05 20:16:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 04:16:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 14705 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 04:16:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 04:16:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 04:16:27 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 189HcB-0002GN-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 20:16:27 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189Hbq-0002G4-00; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 20:16:06 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 05 Nov 2002 20:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from lmin07.st1.spray.net ([212.78.202.107]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189Hbl-0002Ft-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2002 20:16:02 -0800 Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-70-63.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.70.63]) by lmin07.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67E525167 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 05:15:28 +0100 (MET) To: Subject: [lojban] Re: zo'e =? su'o de (was Re: What the heck is this crap?) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 04:17:18 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20021106035715.GA56246@allusion.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-archive-position: 2448 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: "And Rosta" Reply-To: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122260811 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin [This thread has turned into the sort of thing that is supposed to go to Jboske, but I'm replying to Lojban list because Jordan doesn't want to be on Jboske. If anyone would like to suggest the proper etiquette in this situation, I will gladly follow it.] Jordan: > > However, the so-called "inner quantifier" functions as an indicator > > of cardinality. I don't see why a set of cardinality ro has to be > > a set of cardinality su'o. This is a subject of ongoing debate on > > Jboske > > If ro is importing (and apparently it is), it does This is debatable. Firstly, the fact that quantifier ro is importing does not not entail that cardinality ro entails su'o. Secondly, it is not necessarily ro that it importing: I hold to the view that it is da that is importing, so that just as {ro da poi broda} entails {da broda}, so does {no da poi broda}. > > As for whether zo'e claims existence, "lo'e pavyseljirna" is held > > to be a possible value for da, since the universe of things > > can include imaginaries. The view has always been that zo'e > > entails da, because any sumti bar {no da} and {zi'o} entail da > > As you say: > > > The only restrictions the book places on what zo'e can represent is > > > that zo'e can't stand for "noda" and it can't stand for "zi'o" > > Well: even though ro is importing, there's still sumti which don't > entail da which aren't {no da} or {zi'o}: > no gerku == no da poi gerku > no da poi gerku != no da, and doesn't import As I say above, I think it does import. It's not a settled question. > no na'ebo le broda doesn't import So in your view {no na'e bo le broda cu broda} does not mean the same thing as {ro na'e bo le broda ku na ku broda}? I'd say that they mean the same, and that if they both are equivalent to a form involving {da po'u na'e bo le broda} then they both entail {da me/du na'e bo le broda}. > There's probably others.. > > FWIW, it makes sense to me that lo'e (or le'e) pavyseljirna is a > possible value for da, so I retract the example with that (and > obviously the one with lo'i is apparently wrong because ro imports) There's currently room for legitimate difference of opinion on these matters. They need to be settled, but they're not settled yet. --And.