From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Nov 06 12:27:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Nov 2002 20:27:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 53252 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2002 20:27:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2002 20:27:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2002 20:27:47 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 189WmB-0007Zq-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:27:47 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189Wm0-0007ZZ-00; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:27:36 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rlpowell by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 189Wlv-0007ZO-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:27:31 -0800 Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:27:31 -0800 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] So, what about le and da? (was Re: Re: What the heck is this crap?) Message-ID: <20021106202731.GH22843@digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20021105222732.GH22843@digitalkingdom.org> <20021106012321.GA54404@allusion.net> <20021106014101.GU22843@digitalkingdom.org> <20021106033442.GA55657@allusion.net> <20021106173229.GZ22843@digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021106173229.GZ22843@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 2462 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell Reply-To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out On Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 09:32:29AM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 09:34:42PM -0600, Jordan DeLong wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 05:41:01PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > [...] > > > > > ca ro djedi lo nanmu cu cinba la meris > > > > > lo nanmu ca ro djedi cu cinba la meris > > [...] > > > > > ca le nu broda kei lo nanmu cu cinba la meris > > > > > lo nanmu ca le nu broda kei cu cinba la meris > > > > [...] > > > > > And pretty much everyone on jboske seems to agree with it. I > > > > > don't normally read jboske, myself; xod pointed this out to > > > > > me. > > > > > > > > Believe it or not, I agree with the jboskeists on this. > > > > > > For *both* of them, or just tho one with ca ro? > > > > When we say le broda, if we're only talking about only one broda > > this quantifier stuff can be ignored (if the inner quantifier is pa, > > the outer ro will mean 1). If talking about more however, the > > meaning will change when you move quantifiers across it. AndR said > > something to this effect in another branch of the thread. > > I'm sorry, I simply have no interest in speaking that language, and do > not intend to. > > 'That language' being one in which I have to keep quantifier scope in > mind when talking about *non-veridical* objects. Ahem. I'm going to try to be a bit less confrontational. I just had a conversation with xod in which we posited the following sentences: ca ci le djedi pa ko'a cinba pa ko'e pa ko'a ca ci le djedi cu cinba pa ko'e pa ko'a cinba pa ko'e ca ci le djedi *And* the idea that le broda == su'o da voi broda. And I walked through all the quantifier issues with him (because, believe it or not, I do have formal logic training (and a B.Math), it's just been a while since I've used it) and the sky didn't fall in or anything. 8) So. It's quite derivable from the book that ro broda == ro lo broda == ro da poi broda. Fine. Jordan demonstrated this on IRC, and I apologize for being so confrontational about it. (For those observing, note in particular C16, Ex 3.1-3.3). Is it derivable from that book that le broda can be converted to something involving da? If so, what is the exact form of that conversion? Thanks. -Robin -- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ http://www.lojban.org/ la lojban. jai curmi roda .einai to ku'i so'ada mukti le nu co'a darlu le'o -- RLP I'm a *male* Robin.