From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Nov 06 18:36:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 02:36:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 56139 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 02:36:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 02:36:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 02:36:23 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 189cWt-0000MH-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:36:23 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189cWg-0000M0-00; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:36:10 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 189cWW-0000Lo-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:36:05 -0800 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gA72fhiR065815 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:41:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id gA72fhFI065814 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:41:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:41:43 -0600 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: importing ro Message-ID: <20021107024143.GA65663@allusion.net> References: <20021106214736.GA62605@allusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="azLHFNyN32YCQGCU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 2479 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 01:59:04AM -0000, And Rosta wrote: > Jordan: > > With a *nonimporting* ro, > > naku ro pavyseljirna !=3D su'o pavyseljirna naku > > (and the book says this is equal)=20 >=20 > I don't understand this.=20 If "ro da" imports: naku ro da poi pavseljirna cu broda =3D=3D su'o da poi pavyseljirna ku'o naku broda The latter clearly says "there is an X which is a pavyseljirna, such that X is not a broda". (i.e. the second one also imports unicorns). If "ro da" doesn't import, when you try to do that same transformation, you end up with that importing statement. "naku ro da poi pavyseljirna" shouldn't claim there is a pavyseljirna if nonimporting. But if you move the naku boundary, you get "su'o da poi pavyseljirna naku", which does claim there is (some) pavyseljirna. > Nonimporting: >=20 > It is not the case that everything is either not a unicorn or is > white. > =3D > There is something that is a unicorn and is not white. >=20 > -- they seem equivalent to me. You changed the logical structure. You have here: Ax(Ux -> Wx) but we were actually talking about: A(x unicorn)x (Wx) The first form is the same under both importing and nonimporting versions, excepting that in the importing version it requires there be at least one thing in the universe. Furthermore, it is false that Ax(Ux -> Wx) |- Ex(Ux & !Wx) (under either system). > Importing: >=20 > It is not the case that (there is a unicorn and everything is either > not a unicorn or is white) > !=3D > There is something that is a unicorn and is not white. >=20 > -- they seem nonequivalent. The first is true if there are no unicorns, > and the second is false if there are no unicorns. Say this sentence again while looking at your stuff for the nonimporting universal. > --And. (this all, of course, unless i'm missing something obvious; but I don't think I am...) --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD4DBQE9ydLnDrrilS51AZ8RAvFcAKC6W4JdCXHj8I5M8trw0WUZSmE5sACYqm8C zVFvAvp7tBwVTsA+989ZdA== =fm3J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU--