From a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Thu Nov 07 15:25:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Nov 2002 23:25:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 29840 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2002 23:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2002 23:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mrin01.st1.spray.net) (212.78.193.7) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2002 23:25:20 -0000 Received: from lmin01.st1.spray.net (lmin01.st1.spray.net [212.78.202.101]) by mrin01.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4241CF11A for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:25:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-69-236.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.69.236]) by lmin01.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C061D44D for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:25:14 +0100 (MET) To: "Lojban@Yahoogroups. Com" Subject: RE: [lojban] Re: importing ro Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:27:05 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <150.1707b185.2afc049c@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122260811 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin pc: > arosta@uclan.ac.uk writes: > << > #Sentences of the form {Q da poi broda cu brode} occupy an intermediate > #position, since {poi} can be read either as a restrictor on the range of the > #quantifier (the most natural, I think, but I don't insist on it) or > as a part > #of the predicate to a universal subject -- that is as {ganai gi} or {ge gi} > #depending on the quantifier. This seems to me the only question left to > #settle. > > If we settle on the latter option -- the one without restriction on quantifier > range &with implicit rewriting to ganai-gi.ge-gi -- then most of the dispute > goes away, and we end up with the position that is preferred by everybody > who has indicated their preferences -- me, xorxes, Adam, Jordan, & > probably others. > > >> > Well, not quite. That works only if you also have that {ro brode cu > brode} = {ro da poi broda cu brode}, which is just not true in this > case. What would be true is the second half, that {ro da poi brode} > = {roda ganai da broda gi da brode}. > > << > 1. Contrary to what Woldy says, > ro broda cu brode > = ro da poi broda cu brode > = ro da ga na broda gi brode > This would require a correction to 16.8 or wherever it is that Woldy says > these mean different things. > >> > This is not an option I offered. at least the first part is not; the > question is whether {ro da poi broda} goes with {ro broda} or {ro da} > -- the "or" being exclusive, as a moment's reading would show. > > << > 2. The universe is not empty. > >> > This seems a useful assumption given that we are talking and hence > parts of the universe. If you don't like it, the various > alternatives to what happens then can all be accomodated with in the > present system (though rather messily in some cases). > > << > have spoken out -- in the message just cited, for example, but > consistently since 1976 -- against the first one. I had forgotten that you don't accept ro broda cu brode = ro da poi broda cu brode You have no grounds for saying this "is just not true", unless it is clearly stated in the Red Book of Woldemar. It is not a question of logic, it is merely a question of Lojban. Those two structures are equivalent if we decree they are and not equivalent if we decree they aren't. They are Lojban bridi, not logical formulas. I really don't see what we have to lose by agreeing on the 3-way equation, except for confusion and endless discussion. If you want {ro broda cu brode} to entail {su'o broda cu brode}, let's judt define you an experimental cmavo ro'o'o that works your way & then everyone is happy. In the light of this, can we take this issue as settled? In the spirit of resolving the debate, I will even offer to document ro'o'o on the wiki (to the best of my ability), if you wish. --And.