From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Nov 08 17:49:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Nov 2002 01:49:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 88213 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2002 01:49:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2002 01:49:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2002 01:49:16 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18AKkN-0007bj-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 17:49:15 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18AKkE-0007bM-00; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 17:49:06 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 08 Nov 2002 17:49:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18AKk8-0007bA-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 08 Nov 2002 17:49:00 -0800 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gA91stiR088773 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:54:55 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id gA91stpE088772 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:54:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:54:55 -0600 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: quantifying over imaginaries (was: Re: partial recantation in favour of solomonics Message-ID: <20021109015455.GA87975@allusion.net> References: <20021108154944.I36803-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 2564 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 09, 2002 at 12:06:53AM -0000, And Rosta wrote: > xod: > > On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, And Rosta wrote: > [...] > > > How do we say "99% of Lojbanists are male"? I don't know, but > > > it ought to be doable along the same lines of so'e, "most", > > > which also expresses a fraction of a total extension. {so'e} makes > > > sense only with {so'e broda} and {so'e da poi broda} -- these > > > can't be paraphrased with unrestricted da=20 > > > > > > What are the truth conditions of "99% of Lojbanists are male"? > > > At the least they seem to require that there are at least > > > 100 Lojbanists (or at least 2 Lojbanists, if the claim was > > > that 50% of Lojbanists were male). So n% would seem to be > > > importing. But I think we also would like to be able to say > > > truthfully that "50% of unicorns are male". So it seems desirable > > > that we should be able to mark n% quantifiers as either > > > importing or nonimporting. Jorge already suggested a way to do > > > that: by adding ma'u/ni'u with no default when it is omitted, > > > and letting it be glorked from context when not used. This would > > > naturally extend to "100% of", which is equivalent to {ro}. I > > >=20 > > > therefore conclude that for all fractional quantifiers, including > > > {ro} and {so'e}, we want both importing and nonimporting versions, > > > and xorxes's suggestion is the best way to effect it=20 > > > > > > Is this something everyone could live with? > >=20 > > I don't like overloading the meanings of ma'u and ni'u. I don't like > > leaving it to context when it's not expressed. And you should probably > > read and meditate on what I closed message 17044 with, which shows why > > "50% of unicorns are male" is always a valid statement=20 I also don't like overloading ma'u or ni'u; cmavo hijacking is pure mablyzukte. However; "rosu'o" (rosu'opa -- all at-least one), as Nick was mentioning in his mail, seems to give us an importing universal for cases when we need it, without cmavo hijacking. > Okay. I was going to throw up my hands and give up, but I'll try > a different tack. It turns out that I agree with you (in 17044),=20 > but I think it means that John and pc are right about importingness.... I don't agree with xod in 17044. The referent of *some* words are ideas, for example "lo si'o mi citka lei barda cidjrpitsa". However, the referent of "lo xirma" is a horse (i.e. it is some x for which xirma(x) is true -- {da xirma} isn't true if it's just a concept of a horse; {da si'o xirma} is, however). > Firstly, {pi mu lo(i) no pavyseljirna} really does seem nonsensical to > me -- taking 0.5 of 0 is daft, and is really not at all what we mean > to say when we say "50% of unicorns are male". I conclude from this > that the inner cardinality must be su'o. I think Cowan's stuff about 0/0 and this here is bunk. pi mu isn't a divison, it's a multiplication. 0.5 * 0 =3D=3D 0. Furthermore, I think this is entirely beside the point; {ro} is not {piro} (remember piro is exactly the same as pa), we don't have to treat it like a fractional quantifier, because it isn't one. [...] > The upshot is as follows: > (d) {ro broda} IS importing I don't see that as neccesarily being an upshot... We would still have to change all the naku rules. *mutters about how close this issue was to being solved* --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9zGruDrrilS51AZ8RAtpXAJsHgGPUtjcNQsP++Zya4kMMUy1rsQCgra+q BuoH5I2af10mXJ7dL2EQcjw= =ke7m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI--