From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Nov 19 13:29:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 19 Nov 2002 21:29:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 6262 invoked from network); 19 Nov 2002 21:29:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Nov 2002 21:29:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 2002 21:29:29 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18EFw1-00053E-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:29:29 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18EFvw-00052x-00; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:29:24 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:29:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18EFvq-00052j-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:29:18 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C5E2702F for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:28:42 +0200 (EET) Received: from bilkent.edu.tr (ppp1.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.111.3]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFF926FF1 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:28:40 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <3DDAAEA7.7020305@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:35:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Let's be friends References: <20021116225301.QCGE4359.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@Savv> <20021116231947.GX17076@digitalkingdom.org> <3DD7720A.208@bilkent.edu.tr> <02111721181100.03071@neofelis> <3DD8C870.4020504@bilkent.edu.tr> <20021119041902.GA98029@allusion.net> <3DDA09F6.1000800@bilkent.edu.tr> <20021119165301.GA2175@allusion.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020531 X-archive-position: 2649 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robin Turner From: Robin Turner Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out Jordan DeLong wrote: > On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:52:54AM +0200, Robin Turner wrote: > >>Jordan DeLong wrote: > > [...] > >>>Both na'e and na are correct here, they just make slightly different >>>claims. >> >>Yes. What I meant to say was "It is not true that I use Windows", but >>what I said was "I do-something-other-than-use Windows". It's a subtle >>difference, but the latter implies that there is a relationship between >>me and Windows other than "use" - maybe I don't use it any more but >>still have nightmares about it. > > > sa'enai ci'i bu'a zo'u do la .uindoz. bu'a > True, but I think Gricean maxims require that I have some vaguely relevant selbri in mind. If I've understood this sentence correctly, I'd be inclined to say {sa'e} here rather than {sa'enai} _Strictly speaking_ an infinite number of relationships may exist between me and Windows, but in practice only a few of them are worthy of comment. The classic example for {na'e} is mi na'e nelci la djan. as a translation of the English "I don't like John" (since {mi na nelci la djan.} would be true if I had never met John at all. There is a strong sense that the selbri that would replace {nelci} is in the same broad semantic area. Thus mi na'e nelci la djan. .i mi xebni ri is pretty normal, and mi na'e nelci la djan. .i mi prami ri is also fine (think of the Men At Work song, "I don't like cricket - I love it!"). However, mi na'e nelci la djan. .i mi viska ri is a bit weird, I think. robin.tr -- "Do unto others what you would like others to do unto you. And have fun doing it." - Linus Torvalds Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent University Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin