From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Nov 30 07:34:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 15:34:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 16002 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 15:34:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 15:34:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 15:34:42 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18I9di-0004ve-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:34:42 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18I9dW-0004uo-00; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:34:30 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.cc.huji.ac.il ([132.64.1.18]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18I9dG-0004u0-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:34:14 -0800 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.cc.huji.ac.il (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BFF04006D; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:34:11 +0200 (IST) Received: from cc.huji.ac.il (cc.huji.ac.il [132.64.1.5]) by mail2.cc.huji.ac.il (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD823FEFC; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:34:11 +0200 (IST) Received: from avitallap (di8-54.dialin.huji.ac.il [132.64.10.54]) by cc.huji.ac.il (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D09B48F1; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:34:10 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <003401c29885$d8bd1d60$0300a8c0@avitallap> To: Cc: Subject: [lojban] Specific example of Sapir-Whorf in English OR How Lojban made me think more clearly Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:33:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-archive-position: 2789 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: olivera@macs.biu.ac.il Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: "Avital Oliver" From: "Avital Oliver" Reply-To: olivera@macs.biu.ac.il X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out "There's nothing wrong with homosexuals, it just isn't supposed to be". I assuming "supposed" == "meant" (you shall soon see why I prefer to explain using the word "meant"). Sentences similar to these are heard quite often by me, and they make me furious. What does "meant to be" mean? My Lojban way of thinking made me think of the term "meant to be" and I realized that it is actually a brivla: MEANT_TO_BE: x1 meant for x2 to be Thus, "homosexual intercourse wasn't meant to be" would be something similar to zo'e MEANT_TO_BE lenu loi nanmi cu gletu loi nanmu But this means that there is something missing in x1 -- some intelligent and self-concious being that meant for it to be. In essence, saying that sentence would imply the existance of an intelligent self-concious creator, commonly reffered to as 'God'. My point: The notion of "meant to be" is meaningless if the expresser does not believe in the existence of what is commonly reffered to as 'God'. The fact that english allows this to be said without having to notice the 'missing' "x1" would cause, assuming Sapir-Whorf, for people to believe that there are things that were "meant to be" even though they do not believe in 'God'. In Lojban, this could not happen, as if somewas was to say , one would immediately reply and thus leave the homophobic without words. -Avital.