From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Nov 30 08:12:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Nov 2002 16:12:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 81194 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2002 16:12:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Nov 2002 16:12:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Nov 2002 16:12:23 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18IAEA-0005mZ-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:12:22 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18IAE4-0005mG-00; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:12:16 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18IADv-0005le-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:12:07 -0800 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gAUGHsmW095058; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:17:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id gAUGHhWH095032; Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:17:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:17:43 -0600 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Cc: hartovav@post.tau.ac.il Subject: [lojban] Re: Specific example of Sapir-Whorf in English OR How Lojban made me think more clearly Message-ID: <20021130161743.GA94789@allusion.net> References: <003401c29885$d8bd1d60$0300a8c0@avitallap> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003401c29885$d8bd1d60$0300a8c0@avitallap> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-archive-position: 2792 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 30, 2002 at 10:33:34AM -0500, Avital Oliver wrote: > "There's nothing wrong with homosexuals, it just isn't supposed to be". >=20 > I assuming "supposed" =3D=3D "meant" (you shall soon see why I prefer to = explain > using the word "meant"). Sentences similar to these are heard quite often= by > me, and they make me furious. What does "meant to be" mean? >=20 > My Lojban way of thinking made me think of the term "meant to be" and I > realized that it is actually a brivla: >=20 > MEANT_TO_BE: x1 meant for x2 to be A better approach would be something using {marde}, though, I think. > Thus, "homosexual intercourse wasn't meant to be" would be something simi= lar > to >=20 > zo'e MEANT_TO_BE lenu loi nanmi cu gletu loi nanmu >=20 > But this means that there is something missing in x1 -- some intelligent = and > self-concious being that meant for it to be. In essence, saying that > sentence would imply the existance of an intelligent self-concious creato= r, > commonly reffered to as 'God'. >=20 > My point: The notion of "meant to be" is meaningless if the expresser doe= s > not believe in the existence of what is commonly reffered to as 'God'. >=20 > The fact that english allows this to be said without haviqqng to notice t= he > 'missing' "x1" would cause, assuming Sapir-Whorf, for people to believe t= hat > there are things that were "meant to be" even though they do not believe = in > 'God'. I think this is because "meant to be" is almost an idiom for "ethical", "moral", "fits in with my culture", etc. > In Lojban, this could not happen, as if somewas was to say > , > one would immediately reply > > and thus leave the homophobic without words. Or perhaps in lo malylijda nu sezgunta noi se jalge lonu spoja .u'i --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE96OSnDrrilS51AZ8RAmTKAJ9ZOeGj6U7SuuXYqzXybkyg3jxyswCgl1OI rJlcoh886BYOik4akTG5wlM= =rtlm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu--