Subject: [lojban] Re: Specific example of Sapir-Whorf in English OR How Lojban made me think more clearly

From: Jordan DeLong <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:13:14 -0600

On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 03:04:48PM +0200, Adam Raizen wrote:
> de'i li 2002-11-30 ti'u li 10:33:00 la'o zoi. Avital Oliver .zoi cusku di'e

Hey---shouldn't that be 30:11:2002 (or even better, but I doubt
i'll convince you of this: cino pi'e papa pi'e renonore; but it's
definitely unfortunate to use different symbols for pi'e on de'i
and ti'u).

[...]
> >The sentence "Homosexuals aren't supposed to
> You could say "ma minde fi lo'e nu naku lo nanmu cu gletu lo nanmu",
> but you might get the response "no da minde .i javni ma'i le ka rarna".
> (I'm not sure what the difference is between the first and second place
> of javni; if anyone has any ideas, it should probably go into the
> bpfk's work.) I don't think that you'll be able to refute many
> arguments in political debates just by translating them into Lojban,
> but you may be able to reach each side's assumptions faster.

x1 of javni is like x1 of minde, and x2 is like x2 of minde. I
think Nick said that the BFPK will not be looking at gismu, but
because javni has a modal it will probably be addressed.

[...]
> Actually, I think that what we're trying to express here is deontic
> modality, so you could say "nomu'eiku lo nanmu cu gletu lo nanmu",
> understanding no to be quantifying over worlds where the rule is
> followed. If we had a way to explicitly note that mu'ei is deontic,
> we might also be able to note which rule or rule system is used.

How about doing that with marde?

mu'ei could do it, but I hope that if mu'ei becomes official it
either (a) gets moved to MOI or something so it can allow specifying
the type of modality, or (b) it gets pinned down to epistemological
modality in all circumstances.

The problem with (a) is that we lose the ability to do forethought
with it, and to use it in sumti tcita. Instead it would always
have to be at the main brivla (or just in front of it). So I'd
probably prefer (b), perhaps with the use of other mu'ei-like cmavo
for different concepts of necessity (perhaps ma'ei for moral
necessity?).

-- 
Jordan DeLong - [email-masked]
lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u
sei la mark. tuen. cusku
On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 03:04:48PM +0200, Adam Raizen wrote:
> de'i li 2002-11-30 ti'u li 10:33:00 la'o zoi. Avital Oliver .zoi cusku di'e

.uanai .i mu'i ma na cusku lo'u 30:11:2002 le'u to xamgymau toku'i
senpi ledu'u mi ba tugnygau do toi fa lu li cino pi'e papa pi'e
renonore li'u .i xlali fa lenu pilno ba'e za'u sinxa be zo pi'e
be'o pe zo de'i .e zo ti'u toi

[...]
> >The sentence "Homosexuals aren't supposed to
> You could say "ma minde fi lo'e nu naku lo nanmu cu gletu lo nanmu",
> but you might get the response "no da minde .i javni ma'i le ka rarna".
> (I'm not sure what the difference is between the first and second place
> of javni; if anyone has any ideas, it should probably go into the
> bpfk's work.) I don't think that you'll be able to refute many
> arguments in political debates just by translating them into Lojban,
> but you may be able to reach each side's assumptions faster.

.i le pamoi be le'i se sumti be zo javni cu simsa le pamoi be le'i
se sumti pe zo minde .i si'a le remoi cu simsa le remoi .i mi ju'oru'e
jinvi ledu'u la nitcon. pu xusra ledu'u la byfypykyb. to'e co'e loi
gismu .iku'i ru'a mu'i leza'i zo javni jai sabji le cmalymau ke
sumtcita cmavo no'u zo ja'i kei cumki nu co'e

[...]
> Actually, I think that what we're trying to express here is deontic
> modality, so you could say "nomu'eiku lo nanmu cu gletu lo nanmu",
> understanding no to be quantifying over worlds where the rule is
> followed. If we had a way to explicitly note that mu'ei is deontic,
> we might also be able to note which rule or rule system is used.

.i .e'u zo marde banzu

.i zo mu'ei ka'e banzu .iku'i ro mu'ei ki gi zo mu'ei catni binxo
gi .a'o ri ga pamai binxo lo cmavo be la'e zo moi ki'u lenu sarji
za'u te sumti gi remai jai se xusra fai ledu'u selsmi la'o zo.
epistemological modality .zo. po'o

.i nabmi mi le pamoi fa lonu cirko leka ka'e pilno vi loi sumtcita
.e la'o zo. forethought .zo. .ibo nitcu lenu roroi pilno vi le selbri

.i kiku mi milxe nelcu'a le remai .i .e'uru'e loi cnino cmavo poi
simsa zo mu'ei gi'e selsmi loi drata si'o sarcu cu cumki sidju to
.e'u zo ma'ei selsmi lesi'o marde sarcu toi

mu'o
-- 
Jordan DeLong - [email-masked]
lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u
sei la mark. tuen. cusku