From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Dec 01 14:57:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Dec 2002 22:57:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 73640 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2002 22:57:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2002 22:57:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2002 22:57:53 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18Id28-0008Gq-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:57:52 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Id24-0008GZ-00; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:57:48 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18Id1w-0008GO-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:57:41 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28BBE2711A for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:57:07 +0200 (EET) Received: from bilkent.edu.tr (ppp16.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.111.18]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D56B27112 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:57:05 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <3DEA957E.2020501@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 01:04:30 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Specific example of Sapir-Whorf in English OR How Lojbanmade me think more clearly References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020531 X-archive-position: 2826 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robin Turner From: Robin Turner Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out And Rosta wrote: > Adam: > >>>My point: The notion of "meant to be" is meaningless if the expresser does >>>not believe in the existence of what is commonly reffered to as 'God' >> >>I don't think that that's the case at all. "People are supposed to pay >>taxes", "People are supposed to help each other", "People are supposed >>to think rationally", etc., etc. All of these beliefs presuppose >>certain laws or rules, I guess, but I think that they're all held >>completely consistently by many atheists > > > But with some sense either of moral imperatives or else some underlying > design to the world -- = 'god' in a very very broad sense. > > >>>The sentence "Homosexuals aren't supposed to >>>be" would be represented as , >>>or in Hebrew, "GVARIM AMURIM LO LISHKAV IM GVARIM" >> >>Since that sentence doesn't suggest any animate being which prescribes >>the event to happen (the English is "Men are supposed to not sleep >>with men"), > > > One encounters two sorts of religious arguments against homosexuality, > one is that "men are supposed to not sleep with men" -- i.e. it's > a contravention of a prohibition -- and the other is that "men are > not supposedto sleep with men", which is the idea that we should do > only what we are supposed to do, a variety of the "if god had meant > us to fly, he would have given us wings" argument. So on the one view, > homosexuality contravenes a moral imperative, while on the other view > it falls outside the divine design (and is therefore not sanctioned). > I think "supposed to" or "meant to" are simply weaker - or perhaps more explicit - versions of "should". "Should" imples that if a person performs some action, it will significantly contribute to the realisation of some desired aim. Thus, "men are not supposed to sleep with men" implies that the event of men sleeping with men makes it less likely that some desired event will occur. The main difference between "supposed to" and "should" is that it places the desired event outside the person initiating the action which should or should not take place. robin.tr -- "Do unto others what you would like others to do unto you. And have fun doing it." - Linus Torvalds Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent University Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin