From xod@thestonecutters.net Sun Dec 01 17:16:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 2 Dec 2002 01:16:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 77592 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2002 01:16:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2002 01:16:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2002 01:16:44 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18IfCW-0000i4-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:16:44 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18IfCP-0000hn-00; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:16:37 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [66.111.194.10] (helo=granite.thestonecutters.net) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18IfCI-0000he-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:16:30 -0800 Received: from localhost (xod@localhost) by granite.thestonecutters.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB21G0954932 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:16:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from xod@thestonecutters.net) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:16:00 -0500 (EST) To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Loglan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021201195046.R52499-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 2850 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: xod@thestonecutters.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: Invent Yourself Reply-To: xod@thestonecutters.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=110189215 X-Yahoo-Profile: throwing_back_the_apple On Sun, 1 Dec 2002, Steven Belknap wrote: > The non-sequiturs, shifting goals, and outright contradictions are > present only in your distorted, unfair summaries of my opinions. I never > advocated merging the languages, only in finding a way to facilitate the > transition from Loglan to lojban. I *did* feel unhappy about my lost > Loglan efforts and *have* since forgotten most of my loglan vocabulary - > these are not mutually incompatible. I have not suggested changing > lojban, other than to express mild support for the toggling cmavo. You wrote: "I can not support a lojban baseline policy statement which does not cover Loglan. A joint lojban/Loglan toggling cmavo would satisfy me." Threatening to reject the new policy is hardly "expressing mild support". Now, the current baseline does not "reflect" Loglan. You want the next one to. That would require a change; a difference between the two. So you are suggesting changing Lojban, unless now you want to tire me with a long argument about how the Lojban language is somehow distinct from the baseline, and that you can alter the latter without affecting the former. And if you want to encourage the use of a crazy-quilt pidgin of Loglan and Lojban mixed in the same sentences, with Lojban cmavo and Loglan gismu, facilitated by rich use of the toggle you advocate, in order to pander to people who in theory don't actually want to learn Lojban and in fact have yet to make their presence known, with the hope of inflating the "numbers" of "Lojban" speakers, or win the ludicrous propaganda coup of rapproachment to impress a bystander population of conlangers who don't really give a damn, and you think such a monstrosity would make life EASIER for newbies, I lack the time to refute this on its multiple levels of sickness. I'm sure the significance of the fact that there are no Loglanists voicing their support for any of your measures, while one newbie has already announced discomfort at this Loglan talk is completely lost on you. Go right on believing that you're defending the interests of newcomers. > Helping lojban to thrive is my goal, which has not shifted whatsoever. > Your goals are unclear to me. Are they clear to you? If so, could you > share them with us? My goal is to resist any efforts to tamper with the Lojban baseline to kowtow to a constituency that has never been heard from, in ways that would be inappropriate even it existed and was clamoring for it. -- Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.