From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Dec 01 19:30:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 2 Dec 2002 03:30:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 88008 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2002 03:30:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2002 03:30:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2002 03:30:44 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18IhIC-0001O5-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 19:30:44 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18IhI5-0001No-00; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 19:30:37 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 01 Dec 2002 19:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18IhHw-0001Nf-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 19:30:28 -0800 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB23aGG9032527 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:36:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id gB23aGIL032526 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:36:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:36:16 -0600 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: ka'enai (was: Re: A question on the new baseline policy) Message-ID: <20021202033616.GA32484@allusion.net> References: <20021202025037.GB31478@allusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-archive-position: 2858 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 10:04:34PM -0500, Craig wrote: > >> > motto is always the famous LUD - Let Usage Decide. Well, U has D'd t= hat > even > >> > though there is a prescription here, ka'enai is fine. That is to say= , > it > >> > pops up all sorts of places, and everyone understands it (as equival= ent > to > >> > na ka'e). So if the language is reentering a period of change, ka'en= ai > >> > should be considered at least. >=20 > >"Let usage decide" refers to a time (which we are not anywhere near) > >in the distant future when people can fluently speak lojban. It > >does not refer to mistakes people make when learning. Usage is not > >sufficient to decide anything right now, and of the usage which > >exists there's barely any ka'enai---there's only a few people who > >would rather change it to be correct than to just take a look at > >the BNF and learn what the grammar for tenses really is (CAhA is > >not just like PU, neither is ZAhO, etc). >=20 > In general, I respect your opinion - I'm just putting mine out there beca= use > I think yours is worng. But there is one thing I must object to here. The > bulk of "ka'enai" use NOT to be construed as a "mistake people make when > learning", it is a conscious choice to be LOGICAL with our "Logical > language" and use a form that is consistent with the rest of the language= - > despite knowledge that someone decided it should be considered incorrect > without considering the rest of the language. I don't think ka'enai has anything to do with logic. Neither is it inconsistent with the rest of tense cmavo. Why aren't you complaining that you can't say "za'onai"? Anyway, I suggest we discuss this later as part of BF stuff, as it will likely be a topic considered, though I think (hope?) it unlikely that such kinds of frivolous changes to the grammar are made. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE96tUwDrrilS51AZ8RAmnAAJ9VWXICkXD7YpsQMsU5lagLAY1IkQCgioO5 fHWcyaonfnx8HHHTqCix71A= =Mmbx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi--