Subject: [lojban] Re: ka'enai (was: Re: A question on the new baseline policy)

From: "And Rosta" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:51:52 -0000

Jordan to Craig:
> Why aren't you complaining that you can't say "za'onai"?

He well could be. In a former discussion about how to translate
English "still" and "already", {ba'o nai} emerged as the best
candidate for rendering "still" (as I recall). I guess {na'e
ba'o} would do the job too, but it is certainly not true that
nobody has hitherto supposed ZAhO+NAI useful.

> Anyway, I suggest we discuss this later as part of BF stuff, as it
> will likely be a topic considered, though I think (hope?) it unlikely
> that such kinds of frivolous changes to the grammar are made 

I think everyone would support the idea of avoiding frivolous changes 
to official documentation, but you have to realize that you have a 
highly eccentric notion of frivolity. Stuff you consider frivolous,
other people consider to be entirely serious. (Or as serious as
anything in Lojban is; you might argue that the entire enterprise
is one great frivolity.)

The general thrust of the pro CAhA+NAI camp is that the unofficial
rule "NAI has the distribution of UI" is what many people have
internalized, through naturalistic inductive methods of learning
the grammar. The argument is therefore that the unofficial rule
has proved itself to be more natural, and since it is harmless
and has the added virtue of simplifying the grammar a little, it
is a candidate for being officially formalized.

If it were put to a vote, I don't know whether the conservatives
or reformers would prevail. I suppose it would depend on whether
nonactivists could be bothered to vote, since I have the impression
that they tend to be conservatives, while most activists are
moderate reformers. Anyway, if the conservatives won, I wonder how
many "ka'enai" users would stop using it. Not many, I suspect.
Maybe Nick, depending on his mood on a given day. So you're likely
to end up with a baseline that is followed only in those aspects
that command intrinsic respect.

--And.