From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Dec 05 16:51:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 6 Dec 2002 00:51:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 78805 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2002 00:51:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Dec 2002 00:51:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2002 00:51:30 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18K6iI-0003xz-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:51:30 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18K6hj-0003xT-00; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:50:55 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao03.cox.net ([68.1.17.242]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18K6hZ-0003ws-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:50:45 -0800 Received: from nora.lojban.org ([68.100.206.153]) by lakemtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20021206005012.YDLW2204.lakemtao03.cox.net@nora.lojban.org> for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:50:12 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20021205193155.00aca790@pop.east.cox.net> X-Sender: noras@pop.east.cox.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:52:39 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: cmegadri valfendi preti In-Reply-To: <02120414202304.01986@neofelis> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 3095 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: noras@lojban.org Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Nora LeChevalier From: Nora LeChevalier Reply-To: noras@lojban.org X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out At 02:20 PM 12/4/02 -0500, you wrote: >I am calling {doi} a cmegadri for this purpose, even though it's not a gadri. > >According to BRKWORDS.TXT: > > 1) Names: > a) If the last letter of the piece is a consonant, we have a name. A > name must have a pause before it UNLESS it is immediately preceded by > a /la/, /lai/, /la'i/ or /doi/ as a marker, and it cannot contain any > of these markers unless the marker is immediately preceded by a conso- > nant. So, look backwards from the end of the piece for any of the > allowed markers. If we don't find one (e.g. /jonz/), then the whole > piece has been resolved as a name. > b) If you do find such a marker, then check what immediately precedes > it. If there is nothing (e.g. /ladjAn/), or if a vowel precedes (e.g. > /mivIskaladjAn./, break off the marker as a resolved piece (/la/), and > what follows it is also a resolved piece, a name (/djAn/), leaving us > with whatever preceded the marker, if anything, as still unresolved > (/mivIska/). > c) If what precedes the marker is a consonant (e.g. /karoslAInas/) > then ignore the marker and continue looking backwards. This exception > is allowed because /karos/ with no following pause cannot represent a > separate word. > >I am doing two versions of the cmegadri finding routine, the alahum version >and the standard version. The alahum version requires that the cmegadri be >followed by a consonant; the standard version doesn't. > >Assuming that the standard version follows the instructions above, process >{doias}. Looking backward, find {doi}. It is preceded by nothing, so break it >off. The result is two pieces, {doi} and {as}. But that is wrong, since {doi >as} must have a pause before {as}. The alahum version would not split it >because {as} does not begin with a consonant. > >On {doi'as}, however, the standard version would again break it into {doi} >and {'as}. {'as} would then be resolved as an error. The alahum version would >not break it, and {doi'as} would be resolved as a cmene. > >So, for the standard version, should I look for a consonant or y'y after the >cmegadri? > >Another question: why is the cmegadri broken off from what precedes it, >instead of just breaking between the cmene and the cmegadri and leaving the >cmegadri to be found later? What about {MUstelaVIson} and {muSTElaVIson}? How >should they be analyzed? You are doing a variant parse. Breakwords presumed a valid lojban speech stream according to the rules set forth for names (namely that they not include la/lai/doi unless preceded by a consonant). Therefore, my answer is that you should mark {MUstelaVIson) as muste-la-vison, and (muSTElaVIson} as an error, and also doi'as and doias as errors. I realize you are trying to enlarge the area of acceptable names, but (aside from the fact that I support the existing definition as baseline) I think you are doing the LISTENERS a disservice if you wish to have such things as {muSTElaVIson} as a name. The name-maker can take his/her time and analyze what he/she has built. The listener, however, may well be hearing it for the first time (and therefore cannot just pull it out as a known glob). And, the speech stream gives very little time for the listener to analyze new things; if she/he takes too long, the rest of the sentence is gone. Think what the listener must go through: "It ends in a consonant, so it has a name in there somewhere. Aha! There's the 'la'. Yup, there isn't a consonant in front of it. But, wait, the piece before it seems to have the accent in the wrong place. Is the whole thing a name? Is it an error on the speakers part? Or, after all this analysis have I just misremembered where the stress was?" -- mi'e noras noras@lojban.org Nora LeChevalier