From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Dec 06 16:48:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Dec 2002 00:48:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 79829 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2002 00:48:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2002 00:48:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2002 00:48:35 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18KT91-0005Iu-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:48:35 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KT8i-0005I2-00; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:48:16 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-server4.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.1.43]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KT8Q-0005GD-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 06 Dec 2002 16:47:58 -0800 Received: from macsrule.com (85.78.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.78.85]) by smtp-server4.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gB70lv85004634 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:47:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 19:48:22 -0500 Subject: [lojban] Re: Baseline statement Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <961692EE-097D-11D7-A3CE-00039362FD2A@macsrule.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) X-archive-position: 3180 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rmcivor@macsrule.com Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robert McIvor From: Robert McIvor Reply-To: rmcivor@macsrule.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out On Vendredi, déce 6, 2002, at 11:28 US/Eastern, Nick Nicholas wrote: > > On Friday, Dec 6, 2002, at 23:07 Australia/Melbourne, John Cowan wrote: > >> Nick Nicholas scripsit: >> >>> Besides, now that I've read the blasted thing, John had anticipated >>> this anyway: >>> >>> Lojban sruti'o = Loglan sruti,o >>> Lojban srutio = Loglan srutio >>> >>> The comma is a phoneme in Loglan transliteration, which does much of >>> the work of the Lojban apostrophe. Therefore, sruti'o and srutio are >>> distinct in Lojban, and this is not annulled in the Loglan >>> transliteration, which also renders them distinctly. Therefore the >>> difference between the two remains legit. >> >> Alas, no, he's right and you and I are wrong. >> >> The mapping in lujvo is Std "i'o" = Alt "io", since Std "io" can't >> occur >> in lujvo. The mapping in fu'ivla is Std "i'o" = Alt "i,o" and Std >> "io" = >> Alt "io". >> >> So Std "sruti'o" (being a lujvo) maps to Alt "srutio", and "Std" >> "srutio" >> (being a fu'ivla) maps to Alt "srutio". Bzzzzt. > > Oh buggery. > > OK, a couple of things: > > * Raymond's Tengwar doesn't have commas or dots. Therefore, if the CLL > Loglan orthography means that the sruti'o/srutio distinction in Loglan > is illegal, then the Raymond Tengwar means that a distinction between > lis.te and liste is illegal. And remember, CLL does not say the Loglan > transliteration is inherently less 'oddball' than the Tengwar. > > * The Loglan transliteration clearly isn't quite a full representation > of the same phonology in different orthography, but a near enough. > > * In Loglan terms, srutio is always pronounced as [srutjO] (with a > mid-open vowel, whereas normal o is mid-close!) If the rapproachment > were to take place, this would mean that Loglanists would have a > distinct accent which neutralises the distinction between io and i'o > outside of non-Lojban words and attitudinals --- but neutralises it in > the direction of [jO] ("yaw"), not [iho]. So if this were ever to have > happened seriously, and Loglanists pronounced the forms like Loglan, > not just read them like Loglan, then it *would* have represented a > change in Lojban phonology. Since Loglan does not make a phonemic distinction between monosyllabic and disyllabic pronunciation of diphthongs, srutio could be pronounced SRU-tjo, or sru-TI-o, (which would mean something like severely-injured) and both would be considered equivalent. Judging from comments I have heard, the bisyllabic pronunciation would be favoured by many, but there has been practically no Loglan oral conversation since pre-Lojban days. > > * I don't know how this can be patched, and if I didn't think this > whole thing was pointless, I'd rather discard the whole thing in an > erratum and just say that i'V and u'V *always* map to i,V and u,V, > whatever the morphology of the word. So the loglanists who never came > to dinner have a few more commas to deal with. They're getting them in > a'i = a,i anyway. So if they have to write: > > vlatai = vlatai > vlata'i = vlata,i > > I see no good reason why they shouldn't also write > > srutio = srutio > sruti'o = sruti,o > > * The notion that Loglan transliteration constrains Lojban phonotactics > remains perverse. I want the "Get A Grip" reading to apply to all of > 2.12. If not, then I would support an erratum adding at the end that > "where any of these orthographies fail to make distinctions made in the > conventional Roman orthography of Lojban, the latter is regarded as > binding for the phonotactics of Lojban." > > > /> |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\ > | "One must first know that traditionally a Japanese bus has carried > || > | not only a driver but one or more young girls who stand in the > || > | aisles and sell tickets, announce stops, and in general console the > || > | passengers for the inadequacies and discomforts of this transient > \ > | world." --- Roy Andrew Miller, _The Japanese Language_, p. 251 > \ > ||||||||www.opoudjis.net||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > | > | > \||||nickn@unimelb.edu.au|||||Transient Passenger|||||Nick > Nicholas|||||| > ==\|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > / > ()() ()() ()() > > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > >