From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Dec 07 14:36:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 7 Dec 2002 22:36:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 94113 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2002 22:36:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Dec 2002 22:36:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 2002 22:36:45 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18KnYz-0000Sq-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 14:36:45 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KnYw-0000SX-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 14:36:42 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 14:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-server4.tampabay.rr.com ([65.32.1.43]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KnYr-0000SO-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 14:36:37 -0800 Received: from macsrule.com (85.78.33.65.cfl.rr.com [65.33.78.85]) by smtp-server4.tampabay.rr.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id gB7MaU85022740 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 17:36:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 17:37:00 -0500 Subject: [lojban] Re: Aesthetics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <668CB049-0A34-11D7-A3CE-00039362FD2A@macsrule.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) X-archive-position: 3252 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rmcivor@macsrule.com Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Robert McIvor From: Robert McIvor Reply-To: rmcivor@macsrule.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out On Samedi, déce 7, 2002, at 15:28 US/Eastern, Craig wrote: >>>>> Presumably And was indending to replace them with another letter? >>> >>>> Like and H or a Q, possibly pronounced like "theta"? >>> >>> This would be useful in, eg, translating Twain - it allows us to >>> spell > out >>> alternative pronunciations. But in normal writing, it would only be >>> divisive; I dislike h for ' because [h] is not an optimal >>> pronunciation > and >>> /h/ pronounced [T] is just crazy. > >> Why is [h] not an optimal pronunciation for '? (Yes I know the >> title of the thread is 'aesthetics', but you seem to be implying >> there's some kind of reason). > > Because there is a greater phonic contrast between [T] and [f] or [s] > than > between [h] and [x]. > > Of course, even [T] isn't optimal if you can pronounce certain other > sounds. > A Welsh ll, for example, is a lateral fricative; this is an acceptable > ' > sound. Since Lojban has only one lateral sound, l, which does not > *need* to > be pronounced laterally, the most contrasting pronunciation would be a > velar > l (like in English) and a lateral '. > > I use [T], but only because I can't get the ll sound. Think of 'll' as an unvoiced 'l' and it comes pretty easily. Native Welsh speakers have said I am doing it correctly. Bob McIvor