From a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Sat Dec 07 16:04:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Dec 2002 00:04:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 49500 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2002 00:04:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2002 00:04:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2002 00:04:58 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18KowM-0001Yv-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:04:58 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KowF-0001YQ-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:04:51 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lmsmtp03.st1.spray.net ([212.78.202.113]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KowA-0001Xx-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:04:46 -0800 Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-59-137.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.59.137]) by lmsmtp03.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89DB3D43F for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 01:04:13 +0100 (MET) To: Subject: [lojban] [h] (was: RE: Re: Aesthetics Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 00:06:25 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal X-archive-position: 3256 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: "And Rosta" Reply-To: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122260811 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin Craig to Jordan: > >Why is [h] not an optimal pronunciation for '? (Yes I know the > >title of the thread is 'aesthetics', but you seem to be implying > >there's some kind of reason) > > Because there is a greater phonic contrast between [T] and [f] or [s] than > between [h] and [x] Furthermore, [ihi] is so difficult to articulate that I think we can safely assume that nobody actually does say [ihi]. In other words, the problem is not only that [h] and [x] are rather similar in isolation, but that there are phonological environments where the contrast is unfeasibly difficult. I have seen it claimed that [h] and [x] never contrast in natural languages, though John has told me that he indirectly infers such a contrast from descriptions of Irish. > Of course, even [T] isn't optimal if you can pronounce certain other sounds > A Welsh ll, for example, is a lateral fricative; this is an acceptable ' > sound. Since Lojban has only one lateral sound, l, which does not *need* to > be pronounced laterally, the most contrasting pronunciation would be a velar > l (like in English) and a lateral ' > > I use [T], but only because I can't get the ll sound I have recently been experimenting with the lateral fricative. (As a realization of /'/, I mean!) --And.