From a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Sat Dec 07 16:05:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Dec 2002 00:05:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 89511 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2002 00:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2002 00:05:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2002 00:05:17 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18Kowe-0001a7-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:05:16 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KowU-0001ZF-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:05:06 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from lmsmtp03.st1.spray.net ([212.78.202.113]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KowA-0001Xy-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:04:47 -0800 Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-59-137.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.59.137]) by lmsmtp03.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BD63D432 for ; Sun, 8 Dec 2002 01:04:15 +0100 (MET) To: Subject: [lojban] Re: Aesthetics Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 00:06:26 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20021207153048.M91480-100000@granite.thestonecutters.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal X-archive-position: 3258 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: "And Rosta" Reply-To: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=122260811 X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin xod: > On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Craig wrote: > > > >Why is [h] not an optimal pronunciation for '? (Yes I know the > > >title of the thread is 'aesthetics', but you seem to be implying > > >there's some kind of reason) > > > > Because there is a greater phonic contrast between [T] and [f] or [s] than > > between [h] and [x] > > Not when [x] is spoken by someone who can do it properly Yes when [x] is spoken by someone who can do it properly. The fact that a phonetic contrast is perceptible does not mean it is phonologically robust. For example, a phonetician can discriminate between dozens of different vowels, and a speaker of a vowel-rich language can discriminate between a dozen at a phonological level (many more if you include our ability to recognize different accents, which may rely on noticing fine gradations of vowel quality), but there is a powerful tendency in languages to have just 5 vowels, because this is the best balance between multitude and robustness of contrasts. > > I use [T], but only because I can't get the ll sound > > I assume that [T] means thorn? > > In looking for a reference URL for IPA, I find this chart > (http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/fullchart.html), which lacks a capital T > glyph. What source are you guys using? ASCII IPA. The official IPA symbol is a noncursive miniscule theta. --And.