From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Dec 07 16:25:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Dec 2002 00:25:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 77803 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2002 00:25:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2002 00:25:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2002 00:25:06 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18KpFq-0001sy-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:25:06 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KpFm-0001sd-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:25:02 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com ([66.68.125.184] ident=root) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KpFi-0001sS-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:24:58 -0800 Received: from cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (asdf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB80VIG9020185 for ; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:31:18 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fracture@cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com) Received: (from fracture@localhost) by cs6668125-184.austin.rr.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id gB80VHAb020184 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:31:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:31:17 -0600 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Aesthetics Message-ID: <20021208003117.GB19688@allusion.net> References: <20021207204604.GA15906@allusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rJwd6BRFiFCcLxzm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-archive-position: 3260 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Jordan DeLong From: Jordan DeLong Reply-To: fracture@allusion.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out --rJwd6BRFiFCcLxzm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 08, 2002 at 12:06:28AM -0000, And Rosta wrote: > Jordan: > > On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 03:28:24PM -0500, Craig wrote: > > > Because there is a greater phonic contrast between [T] and [f] or [s]= than > > > between [h] and [x]=20 > >=20 > > I disagree. To me, [s] sounds almost like [T]. But [x] and [h] > > sound *totally* different=20 > >=20 > > This line of reasoning is bogus anyway though; languages can divide > > their sounds however they want=20 >=20 > Languages don't divide their sounds however they want. Or, if they > do, then they all want to do it in similar ways. Accordingly, we > can look at natural languages to see which sorts of contrast are > easy and which are hard. [T] is very uncommon (contrasting with > [s] and/or [t]). Contrast between [h] and [x] is even more uncommon.=20 The reason most languages "want to do it in similar ways" is due to two obvious things: (a) common history/cultural diffusion/whathaveyou, and (b) the range of possible speech-sounds humans make. Languages which are very different in history from, say, english, divide their sounds in drastically different ways (e.g. khoisan stuff). But what I'm *actually* talking about (I gather you weren't really reading) is that different languages distinguish on things others don't. For example in english the automatic aspiration of "p" at the beginning of words is not considered a different sound than normal "p", but to a mandarin speaker (ti'e) aspiration of "p" sounds quite different than the normal "p" sound. > There are real books where one can read about this stuff. We don't > have to rely on our own fallible intuitions here. I can tell whether [s] and [T] sound alike, and whether [x] and [h] sound alike *to me*. If you don't accept that, you can piss off. --=20 Jordan DeLong - fracture@allusion.net lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u sei la mark. tuen. cusku --rJwd6BRFiFCcLxzm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE98pLVDrrilS51AZ8RAvEFAJ9P1XkeghPx0p5YAr6UeC3NdHQuPgCeJjGX s5BD9FyJ7BNfbFSlQ1IwC6U= =vIYR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rJwd6BRFiFCcLxzm--