From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Dec 07 20:11:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 8 Dec 2002 04:11:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 77939 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2002 04:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Dec 2002 04:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2002 04:11:58 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18KsnO-00054r-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 20:11:58 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KsnK-00054Y-00; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 20:11:54 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 07 Dec 2002 20:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout3.netvision.net.il ([194.90.9.24]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18KsnF-00054D-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Dec 2002 20:11:50 -0800 Received: from default ([62.0.148.63]) by mxout3.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 0.8 (built Jul 12 2002)) with SMTP id <0H6S007GJ8YTZE@mxout3.netvision.net.il> for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 08 Dec 2002 06:11:18 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 06:13:12 +0200 Subject: [lojban] Re: [h] (was: RE: Re: Aesthetics To: "lojban-list@lojban.org" Message-id: <0H6S007GK8YTZE@mxout3.netvision.net.il> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Foxmail 4.1 [eg] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 3284 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: araizen@cs.huji.ac.il Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list X-eGroups-From: Adam Raizen From: Adam Raizen Reply-To: araizen@cs.huji.ac.il X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out de'i li 2002-12-07 ti'u li 22:47:00 la'o zoi. Craig .zoi cusku di'e >>>This reminds me of something I was wondering about. Is the german >>>sound of ch in "ich" an allowed pronunciation of "'"? > >>It depends on what you mean by "allowed". If you mean allowed as a >>permitted variant, as CLL describes on p. 31 (3.3), then I think that >>the answer is yes: it's a voiceless fricative not already used in >>Lojban. Still, as CLL says one sentence later, "the convenience of the >>listener should be regarded as paramount in deciding to use a >>substitute for [h]." (i.e., don't use it. :-) > >If it meant "don't use it" it wouldn't have said you could. If your listener >finds [T] hard, don't use [T]. But if your listener finds [h] hard, don't >use [h]. Or if your listener is like most listeners and can understand >either, use whichever. But don't use an orthography that assumes one. I suspect that most listeners will be able to understand either/all, but would find anything other than [h] needlessly distracting, and in general you have to concentrate quite a bit to understand spoken lojban anyway, so there's no sense in adding a distraction. mu'o mi'e .adam.