From Philip.Newton@datenrevision.de Mon Dec 09 06:11:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 9 Dec 2002 14:11:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 82352 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2002 14:11:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2002 14:11:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO digitalkingdom.org) (204.152.186.175) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2002 14:11:16 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.05) id 18LOcu-0004Hu-00 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:11:16 -0800 Received: from digitalkingdom.org ([204.152.186.175] helo=chain) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18LOcp-0004HQ-00; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:11:11 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:11:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw6.gedas.de ([139.1.44.12] helo=spree.gedas.de) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18LOci-0004Dg-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:11:04 -0800 Received: from spree.gedas.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spree.gedas.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20108 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:10:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from blnsem05.de.gedas.vwg (blnsem05.gedas.de [139.1.84.49]) by spree.gedas.de (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20103 for ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:10:32 +0100 (MET) Received: by blnsem05.de.gedas.vwg with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:10:32 +0100 Message-ID: To: "'lojban-list@lojban.org'" Subject: [lojban] Re: [h] (was: RE: Re: Aesthetics Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:10:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 3338 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: Philip.Newton@datenrevision.de Precedence: bulk X-list: lojban-list From: "Newton, Philip" Reply-To: Philip.Newton@datenrevision.de X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=23036112 X-Yahoo-Profile: elder_newton Adam Raizen wrote: [on [h] and [x]] > I'm pretty sure that German also contains both, though I don't > know whether it contrasts them. (Using |x| to represent orthographical "x", /x/ for phonemic "x", and [x] for phonetic "x".) It does indeed contain all of [h] and [x] and [C] (i.e. [ç], IPA c-cedilla). (I'm not sure whether there are minimal pairs for [x] vs [C] since their use is nearly exclusively determined by the surroundings except for the diminutive ending -chen, which alway has [C].) However, I'm not sure whether [h], [x], and [C] contrast, since [x] and [C] tend to be syllable-final and [h] tends to be syllable-initial (or medial). Also, |h| is used for sounds other than [h], especially vowel lengthening, and tends to turn into a glide intervocalically. So |Sachen| ("things") vs |sahen| ("(they) saw") is [zaxn=] vs [za:@n]; the second word does not (I claim) contain [h]. Also, |Ehe| ("marriage") is probably more often [e:@] rather than [e:h@]. |Küche| vs |Kühe| is a distinction in spelling, but again, I'd imagine it's [ky:C@] vs [ky:@], with no [h] in the latter. I can imagine there are dialects which pronounce intervocalic /h/ as [h], though. Um, in summary, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a minimal pair between any two of [h] [x] [C] in (my idiolect of) German. (The closest I can come up with between [x] and [C] is |fauchen| "to hiss" [fauxn=] vs |Frauchen| "female master (of a dog or similar pet)" [frauC@n], FWIW.) (Oh, and on a related note, I think I also pronounce /ihi/ as something approaching [iCi].) mu'omi'e filip. [email copies appreciated, since I read the digest] {ko fukpi mrilu fi mi ki'u le du'u mi te mrilu le notseljmaji} -- filip.niutyn. All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.