Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: the ethics of the HTML content meta tag

From: Steven Belknap <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:18:15 -0600

On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:32 AM, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
> Jay and Robin took the proper approach. When I turned the web page 
> over to
> him as webmaster , I gave him broad editorial discretion to modify the
> site.

I'm curious as to why Jay deleted the TLI Loglan references.

> He has done so (and though he delegated it to Jay, he has taken the
> responsibility). Robin's done the job to my extreme satisfaction, and 
> for
> that matter, to the extreme satisfaction of the members, per the motion
> passed at the last annual meeting:
>
>> * MOVED: To Commend Robin Powell for exceptional efforts in 
>> converting
>> the LLG site, and for exceeding expectations on presentation to 
>> public - PASSED
> I find it hard in the face of such commendation, to criticize either 
> Jay or
> Robin for the work that they did.

I have already acknowledged that Robin is doing an excellent job as web 
master. I am appreciative of his efforts. But you appear to be 
conflating a policy issue with a management issue. The relationship 
between TLI and LLG should not have been delegated to the webmaster and 
his assistants.

> We likewise have had no complaints from TLI, and in fact have had 
> increased
> cooperation with them since the site was turned over to Robin, and now
> Robin and Bob McIvor plan to work out a mutually agreeable set of
> references to each language on their respective home pages. I see no
> problem, and every reason to be satisfied.

Judging by the posts to this list, some members of lojbanistan seem 
more than indifferent, they seem quite hostile towards logli and not 
just towards me. Such hostility seems as unwise as it is unkind. McIvor 
is just as much a member of "the Loglan project" as you are. Speaking 
for myself, as somebody who completely avoided TLI politics but was 
avidly interested in TLI Loglan for 25+ years, I was quite offended by 
what I perceived as an inhospitable attitude on this list toward 
recovering logli such as myself. This is a change from when I first 
started following the LLG Loglan listserv in 1995 or so. I believe 
others in my (perhaps only mythical) legion of 500 will be even more 
put off. I hope that your more accomodating stance towards TLI will 
have some influence on the newbies.

>> I realize that perhaps
>> you (and others) don't really care about the history of Loglan
>
> But I do care.

That is clear.

>> and believe that my concerns about this issue are foolish.
>
> No, I believe that your words are counterproductive, in that, having 
> gone
> beyond stating your concern, you are pushing the issue to the point 
> where
> any of us that wish to respect the historical connection to Loglan 
> will be
> perceived by others as being extremists, and the non-productive focus 
> on
> the matter is unhelpful in encouraging greater cooperation between TLI 
> and LLG.

Perhaps my protests will turn out to be counterproductive. I hope not. 
I certainly support fostering greater cooperation between TLI and LLG. 
I will take a "wait and see" attitude on this for now.

>> I certainly agree that that Loglan is dead,
>
> It isn't dead. TLI Loglan is moribund. The Loglan project is alive 
> and well.

I used "that that" Loglan to refer to TLI Loglan. Emphasis on the 
second "that." I agree that TLI Loglan is moribund, if not quite dead.

>> and I gave up on TLI Loglan long ago.
>> But then, what's the use of trying to explain. Nao, buo no, levi 
>> vizgoi
>> ga duodja lopo lentaa la Loglan.
>
> It appears that you have not given up on TLI Loglan.

.le simlu na'e fatci
.xu flalu to'e cusku la Loglan le lojbi

I am a subscriber to some TLI publications. I no longer make any effort 
to learn TLI Loglan and have forgotten much of what I knew. I would 
find it useful to have some kind of LLG Loglan-TLI Loglan glossary, 
particularly for cmavo. There are some interesting chapters on "little 
words" in JCB's Loglan books. It would be great if the full text of 
JCB's books were online somewhere and linked in some way to LLG cmavo. 
A simple ASCII word list would be fine. Some of JCB's ideas seem to me 
to have relevance to semantic issues repeatedly discussed on this 
listserv. Despite some confusing inconsistencies in the TLI Loglan 
texts, they are still worth a look.

I devote my Loglan time to either learning LLG Loglan, teaching LLG 
Loglan to my kids and friends, or posting to this listserv. I am very 
eager to have an "official" printed LLG Loglan textbook to further my 
learning/teaching efforts. Over the past 4 or 5 years I have limited my 
posts to those issues I find most important, such as fuzzy logic and 
building a community of speakers/writers. I do read the list daily, and 
have been following along with the little prince translation. Healing 
the rift between TLI Loglan and LLG Loglan costs LLG Loglan almost 
nothing, but might have a salubrious effect on community building. 
Reminds me of global warming: maybe there is nothing to it, but too 
important to ignore just in case. Similarly, I favor improving the LLG 
web presence to make it match the reality that LLG Loglan is the only 
viable Loglan. Our current web presence is inconsistent with this 
reality. I certainly don't favor doing anything which misrepresents the 
situation or offends logli.

-Steven